The Assembly met at 10.30 am (Mr Speaker in the Chair).
Members observed two minutes’ silence.

Assembly Business

Mr Danny Kennedy: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. My Colleague Joan Carson and I tabled private notice questions in relation to job closure announcements in Newry and Enniskillen last week. Why have they not been included in today’s order of business?

Mr Speaker: The Member is entirely out of order, and he knows it. It is not in order to question such decisions. He is making assumptions that he and his Colleague were the only Members who put down such private notice questions.

Civic Forum: Assembly Debate

Mr Peter Robinson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. A week ago the First Minister rose on a point of order on a matter relating to the Civic Forum. You stated that you would be prepared to consider the issue and that papers should be furnished to you. I know that I have done so. Can you confirm that the First Minister has done so? In assessing the status of the meeting of the Civic Forum on 20 December, I ask you to pay special attention to an e-mail sent from the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister at 15.20 on that day, which referred to the meeting that was taking place at Balmoral. It said
"This is NOT the working group, but a group" —
I repeat: a group —
"to discuss the implications for the Programme for Government."

Mr Speaker: As the Member will be aware, I received some papers from him in the later part of last week. I have been studying those papers. I hope to receive the balance of the papers that were requested very soon and to be in a position to respond. I put it in that way at this stage — I do not want to say anything further. It may be that I will be in a position to respond tomorrow morning, but I cannot say that with finality. However, I hope to respond as soon as possible.

Mr Peter Robinson: Is the Speaker saying that the First Minister, who was only two yards away from him last Monday, and who was waving papers that purported to be proof that there was a meeting of the Civic Forum, did not step forward to hand over the papers?

Mr Speaker: The Member will be very familiar with the practice of waving papers. I have not received all the papers that were referred to, but as soon as I do, or in any case, I will respond to the requests for rulings.

Budget Bill: First Stage

Mr Mark Durkan: I beg leave to lay before the Assembly a Bill [NIA 10/00] to authorise the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of certain sums for the service of the years ending 31 March 2001 and 2002; to appropriate those sums for specified purposes and amend certain appropriations in aid for the year ending 31 March 2001; to authorise the Department of Finance and Personnel to borrow on the credit of the appropriated sums; and to authorise the use for the public service of certain resources for the year ending 31 March 2002.

Mr Speaker: The Chairperson of the Committee for Finance and Personnel has confirmed in writing that the requirements of Standing Order 40 have been fully met. Therefore, the Bill will proceed under the accelerated passage procedure. The Second Stage is on the Order Paper for tomorrow, 20February.
Bill passed First Stage and ordered to be printed.

Fisheries (Amendment) Bill: Final Stage

Ms Brid Rodgers: I beg to move
That the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill [NIA 9/99] do now pass.
For the benefit of Members, I will summarise the reasons for introducing the Bill and its main provisions.
The collection of wild shellfish from the shores of Stangford Lough for commercial purposes has been increasing in recent years. Conservationists have raised concerns about the likely impact of that on the foreshore’s wildlife. Powers to regulate fishing activity on the foreshore are not currently available in Northern Ireland, and changes to existing fisheries legislation were therefore deemed necessary to permit the use of fisheries regulatory powers to control the collection of wild shellfish from the foreshore.
It was also considered necessary to amend existing fisheries legislation to provide fisheries regulators with powers to conserve and enhance the environment and to permit the trade and farming of salmon roe. Additionally, several measures in the existing legislation, relating to the issue of angling permits and licences had proved to be restrictive. The Bill amends the Fisheries Act (Northern Ireland) 1966 to provide the Department with powers to regulate fishing activity in the areas defined as Northern Ireland inshore waters, including the foreshore, by prohibiting fishing from, or by means of, vehicles or equipment of a specified description.
It also provides the Department with the power to regulate fishing activity for environmental purposes in line with its obligations under the EC Habitats Directive. These amendments will enable the Department to prohibit the use of mechanical harvesting equipment for collecting wild shellfish from the shores of Strangford Lough. They will, therefore, prevent damage to the wildlife that inhabits the foreshore in that area.
The Bill also amends several other provisions in the Act that relate to inland fisheries functions, which are the responsibility of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. Those amendments include the removal of the prohibition on the trade and farming of salmon roe while retaining the protection of wild stocks. That will result in the removal of the restriction on trade in a very viable product.
The Bill also strengthens the Fisheries Conservancy Board’s authority to conserve the environment by providing it with powers to regulate salmon fishing for environmental purposes. Those powers control the removal of material from rivers and reinstate in-river habitats that have been adversely affected as a result of pollution. It also provides the board with powers to make by-laws for the management and protection of fisheries and to issue angling licences at concessionary rates to certain categories of applicants, such as those with a disability.
Finally, I thank Members for their contribution to the debate on the Bill and, in particular, the Chairman and members of the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee who carried out detailed scrutiny of the Bill and afforded my officials the opportunity to give evidence on the amendments. On behalf of my Colleague Mr McGimpsey, I thank the Chairman and members of the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee for their work on those provisions in the Bill that deal with inland fisheries functions.

Mr Jim Wells: The Bill is very welcome, and it has benefited from the scrutiny of the two relevant Committees. The grilling that the Agriculture Committee gave the officials impressed me, and the Bill has improved as a result. As Members are aware, the Bill will prevent the use of mechanical means of harvesting shellfish. That is a particular problem on Strangford Lough. I am confident of great support for the radical improvement in the sanctions available to the Department for those who deliberately pollute our waterways.
However, it must be emphasised that the Bill will enable the Department only to make regulations to control those activities. Will the Minister tell us when those regulations will be published, for without them the Bill is toothless?
Will the regulations be subject to the negative or affirmative resolution of the House? That is also very important, because one procedure would enable the House to make amendments to the regulations, while the other would mean they would simply be rubber- stamped.
The Bill is to be welcomed, once those questions are answered. Many people are involved in the conservation of the marine habitat of Strangford Lough and other coastal waters in Northern Ireland and in maintaining high-quality fishing facilities in our inland waterways. I am sure that they will all breathe a lot easier once the Bill receives Royal Assent.

Ms Brid Rodgers: The regulations will be published as soon as possible following consultation, which will, of course, be very important. Consultation will involve all the interested parties. The regulations will be subject to negative resolution of the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill [NIA 9/99] do now pass.

Ground Rents Bill: Final Stage

Mr Mark Durkan: I beg to move
That the Ground Rents Bill [NIA 6/99] do now pass.
I reiterate my thanks to the Finance and Personnel Committee for its scrutiny of the Bill.
In view of the short time allocated to the Final Stage of the Bill, I will keep my remarks brief. However, I confirm to Members who are not in the Finance and Personnel Committee that the 17 amendments agreed between it and me, and endorsed by the Assembly, in no way affect the underlying policy of the Bill. They do, however, improve the Bill’s operational effectiveness by clarifying measures such as the position of mortgage lenders and covenants used by the Housing Executive.
The central aim of the Bill is to simplify the conveyancing process by facilitating the move from leasehold to freehold ownership of residential property. Ultimately that will simplify the conveyancing process by getting rid of complex pyramid titles, which blight so much residential property in urban areas. Associated policy developments are the computerisation of the conveyancing process and the extension of compulsory first registration of title to all residential property. These changes cannot be achieved overnight and will take some time. I hope that Members will be patient in that regard.
In due course, I will bring before the Assembly the necessary associated Land Registry rules and the draft Order that will set the multiplier.

Mr James Leslie: The Minister is aware that I raised some issues at Consideration Stage about schedule1 and his proposals for calculating the multiplier. Owing to a slight misunderstanding between the Minister and me, we were unable to address those issues at Further Consideration Stage. The Minister has just said that a draft Order will be brought forward to deal with the setting of the multiplier. Would the Minister care to comment on any of the remarks that I made twoweeks ago? Essentially, I did not feel that his proposal to set a multiplier of nine represented fair replacement investment value for the loss of a ground rent. I proffered different mathematical formulae that I felt would address that and which would raise the multiplier by two or three notches. Will the Minister address those issues before we finish with the Bill?

Mr Speaker: As there are no further requests to speak, I call the Minister to wind up.

Mr Mark Durkan: Mr Leslie has raised some points that have been aired previously, including during Consideration Stage. The Bill will require and allow the Minister of Finance and Personnel to keep the multiplier under consideration. However, notwithstanding MrLeslie’s insights, I am not minded at this stage to opt for a multiplier other than nine. The advice that I have suggests that that is fair and reasonable and it would be wrong for me to tell either MrLeslie or the House otherwise. That will be determined beyond the Bill when the necessary Order comes forward.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Ground Rents Bill [NIA 6/99] do now pass.

Supply: Spring Supplementary Estimates (2000-01) and Vote on Account (2001-02)

Mr Speaker: I would like to explain how I propose to conduct the debate on the two motions on the Order Paper. I shall ask the Minister to move the first motion, after which we will debate both. In other words, there will be a single debate. It has been referred to by one Member as the "Dan to Beersheba" debate because of the range of matters that may be raised. At the end of the debate, the House will vote on the first motion. The Minister will then move the second motion formally, and the House will vote on it. Members will be aware that that business must be completed by fiveo’clock, when we will have the Adjournment debate.

Mr Mark Durkan: I beg to move
That the Assembly approves that a further sum not exceeding £195,599,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund to complete or defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31March2001 for expenditure by Northern Ireland Departments, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern Ireland Audit Office, the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Office for the Regulation of Electricity and Gas.
The following motion stood in the Order Paper:
That the Assembly approves that a sum not exceeding £3,806,414,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for Northern Ireland Departments, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern Ireland Audit Office, the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Office for the Regulation of Eectricity and Gas for the year ending 31 March 2002 and that resources not exceeding £4,305,870,000 be authorised, on account, for use by Northern Ireland Departments, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern Ireland Audit Office, the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Office for the Regulation of Electricity and Gas for the year ending 31 March 2002. — [Mr Durkan]

Mr Mark Durkan: Before embarking on the main debate, I wish to acknowledge the Finance and Personnel Committee’s confirmation that it has been consulted on the spending plans reflected in these motions. The Committee has shown keen and proper interest in finance issues, and I look forward to its further constructive and incisive involvement.
The resolutions moved have two purposes. The first seeks the approval of the Assembly to the issue of a further sum of £196 million from the Consolidated Fund for the 2000-01 financial year — as detailed in the spring Supplementary Estimates booklet. The second seeks the approval of the Assembly to the issue of a cash sum of £3,806 million on account for the 2001-02 financial year. It also seeks the authority of the Assembly for the use of resources amounting to £4,306 million on account in the 2001-02 financial year.
I will remind the Assembly about the significance of the resolutions for which I am seeking its support. These resolutions are the basis upon which the legislature — in the form of this Assembly — authorises the spending of Departments, the Assembly itself, the Northern Ireland Audit Office and other bodies for the carrying out of their various functions. One of our fundamental responsibilities is to authorise expenditure and to hold Departments to account for how the money is used. This is one of the main means that we have to ensure that we deliver on our agreed plans and, in due course, deliver the Programme for Government when it has been approved.
The scope of the debate covers expenditure in both 2000-01 and 2001-02. The first of the two resolutions is the means by which Supplementary Estimates can be examined by the Assembly. This is the main means of implementing and confirming the decisions made by the Executive on the allocation of resources brought forward from 1999-2000 under the end-year flexibility arrangements, on the reallocation of resources through the in-year monitoring rounds in June, October and December, and on the Agenda for Government, as announced in the summer.
The second resolution is the usual means by which, at this point in the financial cycle, the ongoing commitments of Departments are authorised during the period between the beginning of the 2001-02 financial year and the presentation to the Assembly of the Main Estimates for that year. In general, the cash and resource amounts required on account have been calculated as 45% of the forecast 2001-02 Main Estimate requirement, based on the Budget that was agreed by the Executive and approved by the Assembly last December.
As its name suggests, the Vote on Account is not intended to seek the Assembly’s final approval of the allocations for 2001-02, since less than half the total proposed budget is being sought in the Budget Bill. It seeks sufficient resources and cash to allow services to proceed until the detailed work on the Main Estimates has been completed in the late spring. At that stage, there will be a full opportunity to deal with the details of the spending plans for 2001-02, and, given the switch to Resource Estimates, I propose that there should be prior discussion between my Department and the Finance and Personnel Committee on the Main Estimates over the next few months. Therefore for today’s purposes, I propose to focus on the issues relating to 2000-01, as this is the last major opportunity for discussion on this matter before the end of the financial year. It is important that I draw out for the Assembly some aspects of the Estimates that differ from the position on the Budget and the monitoring rounds.
(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClelland] in the Chair)
First, the Estimates include all aspects of departmental expenditure that are subject to appropriation under the cash regime and which will be subject to the authorisation of resources in the resource accounting regime. That means that they include annually managed expenditure (AME), as well as expenditure that falls within the departmental expenditure limit (DEL). Because we receive automatic adjustment of estimated requirements for annually managed expenditure from the Treasury — and must return any unrequired resources to the Treasury — these items are not included in the scope of the public expenditure monitoring rounds that we conduct and which I have announced on several occasions to the Assembly.
The main items that fall into that category are social security benefits, some of which are subject to annual appropriation or authorisation. Others are charged under legislation to the National Insurance fund, and hence do not feature in the voting process. Expenditure under the Common Agricultural Policy falls into the same category because it is fully funded by the European Agriculture Guarantee and Guidance Fund.
As well as those AME items, there are some aspects of expenditure that are nominally attached to the departmental expenditure limit, but that are ring-fenced by the Treasury. As we have no discretion in the use of those resources, they have also not been included in the context of our monitoring rounds. They include expenditure under the Peace I programme, and the special addition that was provided some years ago to cover the cost of the Moyle electricity interconnector.
I have already mentioned that some social security expenditure is handled outside the voting system because there are standing authorisations, in the form of specific legislation, that allow money to be drawn from the Consolidated Fund, or another fund, to provide a service. A further example arises when a Department makes a loan under some statutory power. Very often, under the cash regime, the issue of the loan will count towards the DEL, but in some cases it will not need to come through the Estimates and voting system, because there is some standing authorisation for the making of loans outside the vote.
Some of the important sources of room to manoeuvre are outside the appropriation system. In particular, receipts from house sales are outside the Department for Social Development votes. The total that determines what we can do is the DEL, which is set by the Treasury. The house sales release some of that spending power, which makes it possible to afford an increase in the cash spending, and hence helps us to afford these Supplementary Estimates.
The convention is that the Estimates are not reduced as the year progresses, even if the Department concerned is clear that not all spending will be required. By their nature, the figures are estimates, and the sense of the resolution is that the Executive and the Departments are seeking spending authorisation up to the figure quoted in the Estimates.
Alongside the Estimates control regime, which operates on behalf of the Assembly, there are administrative controls. Decisions made by the Executive on the distribution of the Budget through monitoring rounds are reflected in clearly stated departmental expenditure limit figures for each Department. Those are issued following each monitoring round and become the cash ceiling that the Executive authorise. The system depends on those two controls working together, and it is a major function of my Department to ensure that those controls are brought together and that the detailed figure work is reconciled.
The final complication that I need to mention is that there can be agreed transfers of resources between Departments, or between Departments of the Executive and the Northern Ireland Office, or between Departments here and Departments in Whitehall. By convention, if responsibility for a function is transferred, the DEL spending provision transfers with it. In other areas, such as student support, there can be a need to allow resources to follow the pattern of demand on an agreed basis.
Those factors are important, because they affect how the figures that are discussed and set out in the Budget planning documents and in the monitoring rounds, are, in the end, reflected in the final amounts that need to be authorised for issue from the Consolidated Fund to cover the approved expenditure. That is undeniably complex, but essential to meet the twin requirements that we keep expenditure within the departmental expenditure limit, as set by the Treasury, and seek authorisation for no greater amount of cash expenditure than is set out in the Estimates.
This is the first time that the Assembly has dealt with Supplementary Estimates. This time last year, the entire process of approving the Appropriation Order was dealt with in three hours in a Standing Committee of the House of Commons. This is also the last occasion on which we will seek appropriation of cash as the sole manifestation of Assembly control of expenditure. We are planning a transition to resource accounting and budgeting, subject to final approval of the Government Resources and Accounts Bill.
The Main Estimates for 2000-01 were considered and approved by the Assembly last June. The Estimates provided the detailed basis for the allocation and use of resources for the purposes prescribed. The Estimates were followed by in-year monitoring rounds in June, October and December, as a result of which changes were made to the allocations. The changes were made possible by the distribution of additional money received from the Treasury; the revised treatment of rate rebates; and the redistribution of easements in the spending plans for certain areas, which included increased receipts.
The changes have been accompanied by detailed statements at each stage and form the basis of the details set out in the booklets that have been made available to Members. Although it was not possible to have prior consultation with the Finance and Personnel Committee before announcing the Executive’s decisions in the monitoring rounds, my officials and I have been available to explain the position. Apart from the late addition of £18 million to the budget for the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, which was made last week, there has been scope for scrutiny following each monitoring round.
The total figure for the Supplementary Estimates is £195,599,000. That will be used to defray charges that fall due for payment during the year ending 31 March 2001. The detailed allocations contained in the booklet have been determined by Departments, following careful consideration and approval by the Department of Finance and Personnel. Departmental Ministers will be better placed than I to explain and justify the detail, but I will try to deal with the matters raised by Members. If I am unable to answer, I will refer the matter to the relevant Minister for more detailed consideration.
The decisions taken following the monitoring rounds provide a picture of how that figure of almost £196 million is made up. For the reasons that I have given, the reallocated amounts do not correspond exactly to the net surplus figures that followed the monitoring rounds, because a number of technical adjustments were made at those stages. However, during the monitoring rounds, Departments declared £148 million as easements, and that figure was weighed against bids for additional resources totalling £418 million. There is some double counting in the figures for bids; bids that are unsuccessful in one round are likely to be repeated later. However, the figures help to illustrate the process, and I will say more about how that relates to the allocations to individual Departments.
Some of the changes relate to departmental running costs. Restructuring costs of £9 million were met from resources carried forward from the previous financial year. That was necessary to ensure that the new Departments had sufficient administration resources to implement the Programme for Government.
As was the case with the approval of the Main Estimates last June and the agreement of the Budget for 2001-02 in December, decisions about the allocation of resources have been influenced by the equality requirements set out in the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and the requirements of New TSN, the Programme for Government and the Executive programme funds. We must keep such considerations in mind, for they will shape spending strategy and will bring about the changes and improvements that we wish to see emerge from the significant resource commitments for which the Assembly is responsible.
I know from the interest demonstrated by Members and Committees, especially the Committee for Finance and Personnel, that this is not a responsibility that is assumed lightly. As an Executive and Assembly, we have a duty to ensure the highest standards of propriety with regard to public expenditure. That is an important aspect of the authorisation, management and control of expenditure by the Assembly and by individual Departments and the bodies funded by them. The efficient use of resources is no less important as that is the means by which the greatest amount of goods and services can be provided for the community that we serve with the resources available.
Those are, of course, matters in which the Northern Ireland Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee have a particular interest. They are able to examine how public sector bodies perform in meeting their objectives, doing so with due regard to propriety and efficiency. As Minister of Finance and Personnel, I acknowledge the important function they perform. I also express my appreciation for the interest, proposals and work of the Committee for Finance and Personnel, which has been assiduous in considering financial and other issues, often at very short notice.
Turning to the allocations for individual Departments, I will begin with the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. In Vote A, which provides for Northern Ireland expenditure on national agriculture support measures, a net £8·1 million is sought. That includes £7·1 million for the special aid package, payable under the less favoured area compensatory allowances, and £1 million to cover higher than anticipated demand for the environmentally sensitive areas scheme. In addition, £29 million is agrimonetary compensation for the arable and beef sectors. That is annually managed expenditure outside the scope of our monitoring rounds, and is offset by a reduction of £3 million for less favoured area compensatory allowances, which will be paid from guarantee funds, fully funded by the Intervention Board Executive Agency. Agrimonetary compensation is designed to offset the effects of currency appreciation on agricultural support prices and compensation payments, which are set in euros.
In Vote B, which provides for local agriculture support measures, a net increase of £24·8 million is sought. That includes £16·7 million for controlling outbreaks of animal diseases, including brucellosis and tuberculosis, which was announced in June and October monitoring, and £2·2 million for business and environmental training of farmers in less-favoured areas, most of which was allocated in the June round.
In the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, a net increase of £7·7 million is sought in Vote A. That includes £2·1 million to tackle health and safety issues at sports grounds, £0·9 million for the completion of capital works for the Odyssey Millennium Landmark project, announced in June monitoring, and £1 million for capital investment in public libraries, announced in the October monitoring round. Other additions include provision to meet pressures from the Arts Council of Northern Ireland and for museums, the Northern Ireland Millennium Company, and to allow for essential research and consultancy costs.
Moving to the Department of Education, an increase of some £7·8 million is sought. There is an increase of £20·1 million for capital works and repairs to schools, of which £6·2 million was provided under the Agenda for Government in June monitoring. One and a half million pounds is being provided for primary school reading schemes, as announced in October monitoring, and £0·6 million is allocated to provide gap funding for certain EU Peace I projects, pending the allocation of Peace II funds — both of those additions are under the Agenda for Government. There are also additions of: £3·3 million for school fuel costs, announced in October and December monitoring; £1 million for the purchase of school buses; £1 million for energy efficiency measures; £5 million for the EU Peace I projects; and £0·75 million for the Irish-medium trust fund, recently announced in December monitoring. Those increases are offset principally by reduced requirements of £25·5 million as a result of slippage into 2001-02 of expected spending on teachers’ pay and on information and communications technology provision for schools.
With respect to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, a token increase in vote A and a substantive increase in Vote B are being sought. In Vote A, a token £1,000 is being sought by the Industrial Development Board (IDB) to cover self-adjusting changes, where any increased requirements are offset by savings.
Thus, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment is not seeking any extra spending power at this time. By including a token estimate of £1,000, we are able to bring to the Assembly’s attention the adjustments within the Department’s previous total allocations that have emerged as the year has progressed. Those include an addition of almost £1 million for the European peace and reconciliation programme.
In Vote B, which covers other economic support measures, such as administration, energy and miscellaneous services, a net increase of £12·1 million is required. That includes: £9·9 million carried forward from 1999-2000 under the end-year flexibility arrangements for the Moyle interconnector; £6·3 million for the European Peace and Reconciliation Programme; and £2·5 million for expenditure on the Information Age Initiative, which was announced last July, and the venture capital fund. Some offsetting savings have been declared elsewhere in the Vote.
With respect to the Department of the Environment, a net increase of £4 million is being sought. Of that amount, £1·7 million is for grants to maintain historic buildings, which was allocated in the October and December monitoring rounds, and £1·4 million is for increased grants in support of district councils, the bulk of which was allocated in the October monitoring round. The remainder is in respect of additional costs for more road safety education officers; planners to progress the area plans; the full resourcing of the planning appeals commission; and for providing additional resources for environmental services.
As regards the Department for Regional Development, a net increase of £7·7 million is being sought for Vote A, covering expenditure on roads, transport and other services. The main items are: £7·5 million for roads maintenance, most of which was announced in the December round; almost £2 million towards the capital cost of a replacement ferry for the Strangford ferry service; and an additional £2·6 million for running costs in the Roads Service, provided in the October monitoring round.
An extra £6 million is being sought in respect of the railways public service obligation grants, announced in June, and £2·7 million for railways capital provided in the December monitoring round. A further £2·1 million is needed for bus fare concessions, bus fuel duty rebates and rural transport. These increases are partially offset by a reduction of capital spending on roads, a decrease in public liability claims and by increased receipts.
In Vote B, which covers expenditure on the Water Service and related services, a net increase of £5·7 million is being sought. The main items are: £3·2 million allocated in the June monitoring round to meet the increased costs of sludge disposal; £1·7 million additional costs associated with flooding emergencies and the cryptosporidiosis outbreak during late summer 2000; and £1·6 million for running costs, which were provided in the October monitoring round. The increases are partially offset by an increase of £2·5 million in receipts.
As regards the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, a token vote of £1,000 is sought in Vote A, again so that the attention of the Assembly can be drawn to adjustments within the Department’s allocations. This mainly involves an increase of £3·9 million for mandatory student awards provided for in the October monitoring round, which is offset by reduced requirements on student loans and from slippage for capital works at the Springvale campus.
In Vote B, a net increase of £194,000 is sought. The main increase of £6·6 million is to provide gap funding to sustain projects under the old single programme, which need transitional support pending the allocation of funds under the Transitional Objective 1 programme.
That is offset by reduced requirements on Worktrack and other training related programmes and through efficiencies gained from the amalgamation of Government training centres with further education colleges.
For the Department of Health, Social Services, and Public Safety, an additional net provision of £43·4 million is sought in Vote A for expenditure on the health and personal social services programme. The increases consolidate the additional funds made available to the Health Service at each monitoring round. They include £19 million towards winter and other hospital pressures; £7 million for community health and personal social services; and £3 million to meet commitments carried forward from last year. A further £18 million is now included to help eliminate the deficits of the health and social services trusts, as announced last week.
With respect to the Department for Social Development, an additional net provision of £6·2 million is sought in Vote A to meet the Department’s administration and other miscellaneous costs. That includes £10·6 million to fund running costs, capital, and other administration pressures in the Department, £4·1 million of which is to assist with the implementation of the welfare reform and modernisation programme. Most of those funds were allocated in the December monitoring round. The increases are offset by an increase in receipts of £4·4 million, mainly from the Social Security Agency for administrating certain services on its behalf.
In Vote C, an additional net provision of £25·8 million is sought for expenditure on urban regeneration and community development, which includes £23·2 million for the EU peace and reconciliation programme and £2·2m for gap funding for the community and voluntary sector announced in the June monitoring round. Allocations for gap funding to other Departments are also included in the appropriate votes.
In Vote E for the Department for Social Development, which covers social security administered centrally by the Department, an additional net provision of £15·1 million is being sought. That is mainly to reimburse the social fund for expenditure on cold weather payments, and increased and retrospective awards of winter fuel payments, most of which scores as annually managed expenditure. The additional requirements also include increases in housing benefit and payments into the Northern Ireland National Insurance fund. These increased requirements are offset by reduced expenditure on the independent living funds and discretionary rent allowances.
The Department of Finance and Personnel seeks an additional £8·8 million in Vote A. That includes £5·2 million on capital expenditure for new works, resulting from the restructuring of Departments, which was mostly allocated in the June monitoring round. An additional £5·5 million is sought for running costs to reflect the carry-forward of end-year flexibility in connection with the provision of Government purchasing, research and statistical and legal services to other Departments. That increase is partly offset by increased receipts across the Department.
In Vote B, which covers superannuation and other allowances, an additional £15·3 million is sought to cover the cost of pensions, lump sums and gratuities to former civil servants. The main changes to the Vote are annually managed expenditure items and are, therefore, not a charge on the departmental expenditure limit.
Finally, an additional provision of £2·4 million is required in Vote A by the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. That is mainly for disability rights, victims, additional allocations to the EU peace and reconciliation programme, and administration costs. That deals with the resolution for the spring Supplementary Estimates. As I stated, I will do my best to answer any questions that Members may have.
The second Supply resolution issues a cash sum of some £3,806 million to be granted on account towards the defraying of costs incurred by Departments and the use of resources totalling some £4,306 million for the same purposes in the year 2001-02. The cash sum and resource totals, for which approval are sought, represent a Vote on Account pending the bringing forward of the main Estimates to the Assembly in May or June. A Vote on Account at this point in the financial year, prior to the year in which the cash or resources will be used, has been a normal feature of Government financial management.
The need to proceed in this way arises from problems of timing given that, after the approval of the Budget in December by the Assembly, detailed work has to be undertaken by Departments and by the Department of Finance and Personnel to disaggregate and allocate resource requirements for individual purposes, often through very narrowly defined line entries. It is to be hoped that this helps Members to appreciate further why it was necessary to seek the completion of the Budget stage of the process before Christmas.
I draw the Assembly’s attention to an important innovation in the way in which the Vote on Account is presented. For the first time, it will reflect not only the allocation of cash to Departments but an allocation, up to a limit, for the use of resources. I drew the attention of the Assembly to this first allocation of resources based on resource budgeting in my statement on Budget proposals in October 2000.
The Vote on Account will see the first implementation of that approach, which will have important consequences in ensuring that assets are properly valued and that the full resource cost of expenditure can be brought into account. That in turn will involve much more attention being directed to the setting of targets, measurement of outputs and the attribution of resources to the achievement of the objectives for which they were originally intended.
The Government Resources and Accounts Bill, which is currently under consideration by the Assembly, provides for the necessary changes in financial measures to support the introduction of resource accounting and budgeting and to secure the authority and control of the Assembly in relation to the use of resources, in similar terms to those which exist for cash allocations. Those changes are important, though largely technical, and will also impact on the Budget Bill that I introduced earlier today.
The Vote on Account will fund Departments to implement the ongoing programmes and services for which they are responsible and which formed part of the Budget decisions taken in December 2000. There will be an opportunity for a full debate on the detail when the Main Estimates are finalised in June. This is the first Budget for which the Assembly has been solely responsible and, therefore, the first opportunity to begin to apply our collective judgement to the priorities and to the social and economic outcomes that we wish to achieve through public expenditure.
We have established several important cornerstones upon which we wish to build our policies and develop our thinking further. These include, of course, the equality considerations to which we must have regard, recognition of need through New TSN, the Programme for Government and the priority areas and initiatives that will attract additional funding through the Executive programme funds.
In commending these resolutions to the Assembly, it is right that we should pause to recognise the importance of being able to make these decisions in a devolved Assembly for the first time for a complete financial year. It is also appropriate, as I noted in the context of the Supplementary Estimates resolution, that we ensure appropriate levels of management and control over the use of these resources. We must be seen to use them with maximum effect to ensure the highest quality and greatest range of services possible for the citizens of Northern Ireland.

Mr Francie Molloy: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome the Minister’s detailed statement on the Budget and the Supplementary Estimates. It is important to note that we have £196 million made available to the Department in the current year, either through reallocation or as a result of additional funds provided by the Chancellor.
I welcome the allocations made to the various Departments. We have discussed those on previous occasions. In particular, I note the issue of funds to health, education and infrastructure, as well as the important role that we have in rebuilding the failures of the past. Several services have been underfunded to the extent that they have been deprived and, in some cases, are falling apart. It is important to note the change and restructuring taking place and that the money will be available for that.
I welcomed the Minister’s previous announcement about a reduction in the increase in regional rates. That will take some pressure off rural areas and small businesses. The Finance and Personnel Committee suggested a reduction in the increase in domestic rates and it’s members would have welcomed that. However, it is not possible at present. Will the Minister continue to re-examine the rates as a means of tax raising? Could we consider alternatives? The rating system is an unfair way of collecting tax and it has a detrimental effect on communities, especially the business community.
In the past, the Finance and Personnel Committee expressed concern about the absence of consultation with Committees prior to the allocation of funds through the monitoring rounds. At present, the reallocations are presented to the Assembly as a fait accompli, giving Committees no opportunity to influence the outcome. It is important that Committees have an opportunity to put forward suggestions, and they should have an opportunity to discuss with and present their views to Departments for future monitoring rounds.
There should be a revised arrangement in which the Department of Finance and Personnel anticipates the likelihood of additional money. That anticipation should be put to the Committees for discussion so that they can have an opportunity to influence Ministers before the Executive make the final decisions on the reallocation of money. In that way, there would be more collective responsibility in how money is reallocated. The Executive may not take the Committees’ opinions fully on board, but they must be involved in the discussions.
I welcome the introduction of the Vote on Account as a means of ensuring that the Departments’ work will continue while the main estimates for 2001-02 are being considered and adopted by the Assembly. It should be noted that the new practice has been adopted by the Department of Finance and Personnel exceptionally when the Vote on Account has been calculated at 45% of the incoming Main Estimate rather than being based on the previous year’s Estimate. That will provide a larger sum than normal for Departments. The change has been made necessary because of the complications arising from the introduction of resource accounting. Will the Department revert to the former practice or will it continue with the new practice?
When reporting on the Budget proposals in November, the Finance and Personnel Committee mentioned some measures that must be taken to reassess the application of the Barnett formula. The Barnett formula fails to address the issues relating to the present infrastructure deficit, the low population deficit, the population of regions — east and west — and the need to follow social deprivation to target that social depravation and need. The Barnett formula — for it is simply a population head count — does not have the ability to do that. Will the Minister involve the Committee in discussions to review the Barnett formula, and possibly look to a co-ordinated approach with the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the British Parliament? A co-ordinated approach would be of benefit to everyone. Targeting need is an issue that must be examined.
The Executive Committee should press ahead with the structure of a staffing review of the Civil Service to obtain the maximum possible levels of efficiency and value for money in the future.
The Minister should seek to impress upon his Colleagues in the Executive Committee that Assembly Committees ought to be engaged at the earliest stage of the preparation of the 2002-03 Estimates. The first consultation should take place before Departments submit their initial bids to the Department of Finance and Personnel for consideration in spring and early summer. That would enable Statutory Committees to respond quickly and effectively to the draft Budget proposal when it is presented to the Assembly. We suggested that the draft Budget proposal should be the first item of business for the new session in September. That would be the new means for working out the financial year. If Committees were consulted in advance we would have a free-flowing consultation, which would avoid people feeling that they do not have time to discuss these subjects fully. If all Committees and Ministers were involved, everyone would be better informed and consulted.
The Minister and his Colleagues in the Executive should continue to ensure that targeting social need and other work to address deprivation are given high priority. The Minister said that he would continue to ensure that that happens. All possible steps should be taken to maximise the benefits gained by European funding. The Minister referred to gap funding and the new round of European funding. The new round of European funding should be allocated as quickly as possible. Go raibh maith agat.

Dr Esmond Birnie: I congratulate the Minister on an intricate presentation in which he observed Charles Dickens’s advice, which he put in the mouth of MrMicawber, about keeping his expenditure limits just within the size of his income. Overall, the NorthernIreland Budget will now do that for the remainder of the financial year.
On behalf of the Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment Committee I will concentrate on the Supplementary Estimates and raise several points on the basis of some of the more significant changes in the pattern of expenditure in our Department.
First, an additional £0·5million has been allocated in Vote A for increased administrative costs, and £100,000 of that are extra devolution-related costs. Also, £200,000 has been allocated for improved computer systems for student awards, and £161,000 has been allocated for the administration of New Deal. My point is not necessarily that such extra administration is wrong — it may well be needed — but that all additional administration costs must be carefully justified.
Secondly, a further £135,000 has been transferred to the NorthernIreland Credit Accumulation and Transfer Scheme (NICATS), which recently gave evidence to my Committee. On the basis of what we heard of its work, we welcome the additional resources for NICATS. We note the progress that it has made on a vertically and horizontally progressive system of qualifications. It seems to be ahead of the game with respect to its counterparts in other parts of the UnitedKingdom.
Thirdly, the Committee recognises the increased provision of roughly £4million for mandatory student awards, and the Minister hinted that that is a demand-led expenditure.
Moving to VoteB for the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, we see an increased provision of almost £1·5million for administration costs associated with devolution and some information technology costs relating to private finance initiatives (PFI). There are obviously issues, in principle, relating to the pros and cons of PFI, which we may return to in a subsequent debate. We recognise that if there is to be PFI then the IT systems should be as good as possible — we trust that there will be sound purchasing of IT systems.
On Vote B for the Department, we note the reduced requirement of about one third of a million pounds because of a lower than expected uptake on the Department’s management development programme. As a Committee, especially given our priorities with respect to upgrading human capital in the Northern Ireland labour force, at face value we have concerns about that. It is obviously a case of demand-led expenditure — the Department can take horses to water, as it were, but it cannot force them to drink. Nevertheless, it should concern us all that in the Northern Ireland economy — despite the fact that there are some excellent and world-class management teams — there are cases of Northern Ireland firms, whether in the manufacturing or service sectors, in which management over the years has lacked imagination and sufficient international experience. That may explain some relatively recent job losses. I, therefore, put down a marker relating to the lower than expected uptake on that management development programme.
Finally, we note a reduced requirement of almost £4 million on the Worktrack programme because of a lower than expected uptake. We wonder what is going on there. The more optimistic scenario is that it reflects the reduction in long-term unemployment in the Province. However, we want to be realistic, and there may be more pessimistic interpretations on why the uptake of Worktrack has been lower than expected.
I support the motion on the Supplementary Estimates. We trust that the concerns that I have raised on behalf of the Committee will be dealt with appropriately by either the Finance Minister or his Colleague, the Minister of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment.

Ms Patricia Lewsley: I welcome the first native Budget that allows the Executive and the Assembly to work together on budget allocations. I appreciate the Minister’s handling of these affairs. He has shown that he has tried to be fair and equitable to everyone. We have seen, through the Executive programme funds, that Departments have the opportunity to discontinue their current patterns. It is not about the Departments extending them and rolling them over, but about standing at the crossroads and seeing how they can redirect or prioritise many aspects of their expenditure.
There is now the opportunity for new innovation and for Departments, in particular, to become more proactive, rather than reactive, with their budgets. That can be seen by the increases reflected in the new allocations to Departments relating to the December, and other recent, monitoring rounds.
The Children Fund, the consultation on a commissioner for children, the £2 million set aside for gap funding, and free transport for the elderly are just a few examples of the innovation that we hope to see more of in the future. We have seen an extra £273,000 allocated to the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister for disability rights, victims and research. That is a welcome move in creating a more fair and equitable society for everyone in Northern Ireland.
On departmental priorities, the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety has been given extra resources to tackle the deficits in the health trusts. It has been given gap funding for the community and voluntary sector. It is to be hoped that the £100,000 taken out of the mental health budget, especially in the Down Lisburn Trust area, can be returned to the mental health budget and services sooner rather than later. I hope that that will be seen as a priority. That is one area where we could see a real change in people’s quality of life and, considering the huge increase in the number of suicides among young men, in the long term, save many lives.
We must consider the £360,000 allocated to essential repairs to classrooms. How will that be allocated by the Department? Considering the current number of ancient mobile classrooms which must be repaired, how will that money be prioritised? Is that throwing good money after bad? Should we be attempting to repair them, or should we be replacing them so that we will be saving money in the long term? What effect do they have on our pupils, especially with regard to their performance and their health and safety?
What value for money will we get from the £465,000 allocated for post-primary consultation, known to many of us as the Burns review? What will the outcome of that review be? Will it simply tell us what Prof Gallagher has already told us — that the 11-plus and selection must be scrapped? Will it make a recommendation about what our post-primary education system should be? Should we be changing it completely or keeping our grammar and secondary education systems? Further down the line, after the Burns review, will we be told that we need another large amount of money to go into consultation with regard to secondary education?
Although I have had some reservations about the Departments’ expenditures, the main issue for me is that I, as an Assembly Member, have the opportunity in the House to approach a local Minister, who is available to listen and take on board my points of view on a local funding issue.
My final point is to do with the Government’s resource accounting budget, which gives the opportunity for transparency, accountability and, more importantly, feedback to the Assembly. That clearly illustrates the true cost of running Departments and has the effect of improving the financial management of the Exchequer.
I support these motions.

Mr Edwin Poots: I congratulate the Minister on the delivery of his speech. He outlined how the money is to be spent, clearly and concisely, and I appreciate that.
Almost £8million has been added to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s budget, of which more than £1 million is to be allocated to capital spending on libraries. That means that £2·5million is to be spent on library provision. Once again I must mention library provision in Lisburn. For the past 25years, there has been insufficient library provision there. Other towns, such as Portadown and Strabane, have jumped the list and moved ahead of Lisburn, and I challenge the Minister to look seriously at that issue again. We have heard a great deal of talk about private finance initiatives, but clearly those are not suitable for this project. Lagan Valley residents will not tolerate the Minister’s trying to fob us off with private finance initiatives in respect of that issue.
An extra £25million has been allocated to the agriculture budget. That is a large additional amount of money, but it will make little difference to farmers. There has been a lack of innovation on the part of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development officials, and, to a greater extent, the Minister is singing from the same hymn sheet as the direct-rule Ministers were. There was an opportunity to introduce animal welfare and environmental grants schemes, which would have been similar to the old sub-programme for agriculture and rural development (SPARD) scheme. That would have helped farmers to afford improvements. Not only are farmers’ incomes decreasing each year, but farms are running down and deteriorating as the years go on. There has been an opportunity for the Minister to do something about this, but so far she has failed. We will continue to challenge the Minister on those issues in the coming year.
I am a member of the Environment Committee, and the Department of the Environment has received an extra £4 million. Steady progress has been made by the Environment Committee and the Minister of the Environment. I especially welcome the £1·7 million that has been allocated for historic buildings. That will release matching funding from the Heritage Lottery Fund, thereby bringing money to the Province. Those who appreciate our built heritage will also appreciate the extra money.
The extra money for road safety officers and for the Planning Service is most welcome. However, the Committee is still concerned about the Environment and Heritage Service. There is not yet sufficient funding to carry through much of the work that is demanded of it by the European Union. Those issues must be addressed.
I am concerned that the Minister of Education continues to allocate money to pet projects such as his Irish-medium education fund. There is clearly not a large demand for it. There is a large demand for new schools and new classrooms for the children. There are children in mobile classrooms in conditions that they do not deserve to be in, and the Minister does not appear to prioritise his money to that end.
The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment does not seem to spread tourism funding evenly across the Province. The figures speak for themselves. Certain areas receive sufficient funding for tourism while other areas receive negligible funding. The moratorium on grants outside the Greater Belfast area goes against Lisburn, Newtownabbey, North Down, and other council areas. Those areas do not have decent hotels, because no one wants to put in the full funding while grants are available in Belfast city centre. The Minister must reconsider that..
The gas pipeline to the south-east of the Province is not getting much of a hearing. All efforts seem to be put into the gas pipeline to the north-west — and that is fair enough. However, a large amount of business is done in towns in the south-east of the Province, such as Dromore, Banbridge, Craigavon, Portadown and Newry, and a large number of people live in those areas. The gas pipeline to that area is equally as important as the pipeline to the north-west of the Province.
Turning to the Estimates for the Department for Regional Development, I would like to mention the Antrim-Knockmore railway line. An extra £20 million has been allocated to the railways. That £20 million, and a lot more, is needed to make the railways safe. Part of the initial AD Lyttle report suggested the closure of the Antrim-Knockmore railway line. It will cost £428,000 to buy replacement buses and to fence off the lineand an additional £246,000 per year will be needed to subsidise the bus routes on that line.
I ask the Ministers concerned to look at the value of the railways to Northern Ireland and the value of that line in the context of the regional strategic framework and find the resources to keep it open. Closing it would be a retrograde step. When railway lines are closed, they are closed for good, with the exception of Bleach Green, which is opening again after 20 years. In this day and age, we are meant to be seeking safer and more environmentally friendly methods of transporting people. The Assembly would be sending out the wrong message if it closed any further railway lines.
I welcome the additional funding for maintaining roads. A little in a large pot is required. When some representatives of the Department for Regional Development came before our district council they said that there is not enough funding in the maintenance budget to resurface some roads for at least 100 years. If we are going to have to wait 100years for some roads to be resurfaced, they will be in a very poor state. We cannot continue to ignore the state of our roads — we all use them. Sufficient funding must be put into the roads budget, especially for roads in rural areas.
The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety received £43·5million. I would like to see a large amount of funding going to the Health Service if it resulted in more hip operations taking place, or in people not having to wait so long for open-heart surgery. I do not like to see the wastage that is in the Health Service, and I am concerned about it. I do not like to see the wastage that occurs in the preparation of documents in Irish, in prescription fraud and in theft from hospitals. I challenge the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to consider how it could save and reallocate money according to the real needs of the people and not just carry on as things are at the moment.
The Department for Social Development received an extra £6·2million. Historically, much of its funding for urban regeneration has gone to Belfast and Londonderry, but there are many other important towns in the Province which would like to see a bit more of that funding coming their way. People in those towns feel that they have been hard done by over the years, and the Minister for Social Development has the opportunity to address that.
The Minister of Finance and Personnel discussed rates. We should be looking at a situation where the out-of-town shopping centres should be charged higher rates than those paid by shops in town centres. Businesses in town centres are not working on a level playing field, because out-of-town shopping centres have free car parking. The rateable valuation of out-of-town shopping centres should be increased to allow town centre businesses to compete. I am concerned that, while many of our towns and villages are boarding up their shops, large shopping centres are being constructed.
I am concerned at the increasing departmental running costs of the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Ministers (OFMDFM) — now over £11million, which is an increase of £239,000. That Department is top-heavy, with a lot of under-secretaries and high-grade civil servants.
While extra money was being allocated to OFMDFM, the funding for victims was not receiving its full allocation. Less than half of the amount sought was received, and only £500,000 was sought in the first instance. I quote from the draft Programme for Government:
"as an important part of addressing human rights, it is important that special attention is paid to the needs of those who have been most directly affected by the violence of the last 30years. The needs of victims and survivors are complex, ranging from coping with serious injury through to physical and emotional trauma, along with dealing with often adverse economic circumstances."
We must look seriously at finding a reasonable amount of money to try to meet the needs of victims.
The Community Relations Council receives almost £6 million. At some stage that funding must be looked at. There is less violence than previously in Northern Ireland, but we certainly do not have good community relations. Substantial funding has gone into community relations in the last 10 to 15years. One must ask if community relations are better or if any significant difference has been made. It must be decided whether the money which is put to that purpose is well spent.
I also want to raise the issue of electronic government. No resources have been allocated to that, but a wish list has been set out. None of the desired achievements will be possible, however, without adequate resources.

Mr Alex Maskey: Go raibh maith agat, Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to be brief. I do not want to go into the Estimates Department by Department, for I want a time to come when each Committee can deal with those aspects of the Estimates that are relevant to its Department. That would be the best way to proceed in the future, and I know that the Minister has addressed that very issue himself. It would perhaps take away some of the need for people to itemise issues in the Chamber. I do not want to deal with any specific items myself.
I would like to deal with the overall question of public financing. There has been a learning curve in the Assembly and the Executive, and a lot of work has been required. There has been the negotiation of the Programme for Government, the Budget, and so on. That has been crucial work, and I commend the Minister, and the Executive, for having produced everything that has been done so far.
I would like to have a much more wide-ranging debate, though obviously not today. I want to flag up the need to have an overview. When I raised the question of the regional rate recently, I made the point that I wanted to reduce it to the level of inflation for one year to allow time for a much wider overview of it. We have looked at the Barnett formula. There is no doubt that this area has not been dealt with favourably under the Barnett formula, and there is a need to look at it. Mr Molloy and others have already raised that.
There is the question of the Executive programme funds. How do we allocate money for targeting social need? We are consistently told that that is a theme. It is Government policy and a requirement of the Good Friday Agreement, but we do not, in my view, appear to take it seriously enough. That is not a reflection on any of the Ministers, of course, but we are not getting proper details of the way in which we deal with targeting social need and how we deploy money. I know that it is not only money which has to be deployed to target social need, but there is obviously a significant consequence for the overall finances if we do deal with targeting social need in the way in which people expect us to.
There is of course the matter of European money. There are the vexed matters of private finance initiatives (PFI) and public-sector borrowing. I welcome the fact that the Finance and Personnel Committee has now launched a public inquiry into the use of PFI. It is clear that PFI appears to underpin a good deal of the work and aspirations of the Executive. There is a compelling and growing body of evidence that the PFI schemes of the past were not necessarily that successful. The key question — that of having important public services remaining in public ownership — must be addressed by the Assembly. I advocate that we try to map out some time for the Assembly to debate the overall question of public financing.
We also have to deal with the cross-border tax variations and, as I see it — as, indeed, do many economists who are not Nationalists or Republicans — the need for a single-island economy. I am drawing attention to the need for a full, public debate on public financing.
I welcome the public service agreements and the Minister’s Government Resources and Accounts Bill. Those are ways by which we can measure public spending better and more effectively. As I said to some officials recently, it is important that public service agreements are established. They detail and highlight what is being financed. The Department must bear in mind that the contrary is also true. They also identify what is not being financed. They therefore help to make all the parties, the Executive and the Assembly as a whole more accountable to the public.
I would like to echo one of the earlier comments. We need to take time to perform our duties in the Executive and the Assembly, but we also need to think in more imaginative terms as time goes on. We do not need the carry-on and carry-over policies that some Departments have unfortunately been carrying out. There is a need for innovation and imagination. There is a need — and I know that the Minister has addressed this in recent debates — for us to take stock and to have an overall view of public financing and the responsibilities that we all have.
12.00

Mr Seamus Close: I commend Mr Micawber, sorry: the Minister, for his detailed presentation. I am sure that I am not the only Member who recognises the many frailties of our understanding of the complexities of the cycle of public expenditure. Each opportunity presented to us should be used as a chance to learn, as we try to get to grips with what is perhaps the most important subject for debate in this Chamber. After all, this issue affects every man, woman and child in Northern Ireland.
Having expressed my compliments to the Minister, I will now take a more traditional route and express yet again my deep disappointment at the lack of time that has been made available to Members, Committees and those who are not on Committees to carry out a proper scrutiny of these spring Supplementary Estimates. Last year the Minister referred to the tight time schedule, and the record will show that he said that this restriction was unacceptable and that improvements were needed.
One year on, one must question how much has really changed. I concede that, over the last six to nine months, there has been an opportunity to see the figures produced in the monitoring rounds. But, as I pointed out to the House, that happened retrospectively. The Committees saw the figures after the job was done. We have been asked to accept a fait accompli. I question, as I have done in the past, whether that constitutes proper scrutiny. In my book it does not. The advice that each Committee member is required to give to the Minister on the financial exercise should be taken on board before the matter goes before the Executive. We have not yet got that right.
I echo the sentiments of MrMaskey, who said that we need to sit down and find a set of procedures that suits what we want to do on behalf of the tax-payers, our electorate. Our focus should on be on trying to meet time barriers. We must reorganise ourselves in such a way as to give us the time we need to do the job for which we were elected. Scrutiny, as I have said before, means examining in minute detail. It is a totally different concept from consultation.
It strikes me that at the minute we are still operating on a consultative basis — "Let us have a wee word with the Committee; let us have a wee word with Members, see what they think, and then proceed to do what the Executive want." I am sorry, but that is not acceptable. That must change. I am not trying to be negative; I am trying to be positive. I am trying to bring about, with other Members, something that has never happened before, a situation in which we, as accountable representatives, have the necessary knowledge to enable us to explain things, as necessary, and to enable us to ensure that money is spent in the most efficient and transparent manner possible.
To highlight this, last year the spring Supplementary Estimates documents were available on approximately 17February. Today is 19February. Is that progress? What additional time and opportunities have been given to us? We need to look very seriously at this. If I were a suspicious person I would be concluding that the concept of scrutiny may be something that is slightly bothersome to some people. I would not like to leave the Chamber with that sentiment. Scrutiny is important; it is essential, and we must create the circumstances and allocate enough time for it. We must be about accountability and transparency. I live in hope that that will happen sooner rather than later.
I would like to make some general comments on the spring Supplementaries. I apologise in advance if some of my comments or questions appear silly to some people. I am trying to get to grips with the overall situation, and one must often ask silly questions to get the correct answers. I take comfort from the fact that even the Minister referred to the complexities of the subject. Therefore, I suppose, I can claim that ignorance is bliss.
Looking at the overall figure of the Supplementary Estimate provision, I note that an additional £195 million is being sought. That represents approximately 2.5% of the main Estimates. The figure sought last year was not a hound’s gowl from that in percentage terms.
Is 2·5% of the Main Estimate the size of provision normally sought through the spring Supplementaries? If that is the case and things are budgeted so that we get an additional 2·5% through the Supplementary Estimates, it begs certain questions about some of the votes. For example, 50% is being sought for national agricultural support. Why is that? Has there been particularly bad budgeting, or do we just stick a notional figure in the original Estimates? Bids have included a 10% increase for culture, arts and leisure; 40% for urban regeneration under the Department for Social Development; 8% for finance and personnel; and an additional 7% for the Office of the First and the Deputy First Minister. Interestingly, over 100% of an increase has been requested for superannuation and other allowances. The Main Estimates provision was over £14million; now they are seeking £15·2million to bring the total amount to £29·3 million.
We must study and query those bids. Do they follow some general policy? Comparison with last year’s supplementaries certainly gives credence to that view. For example, last year an additional £10 million was sought for national agricultural support; this year it is an additional £8 million. The IDB bid last year was for a token amount; ditto this year. The Finance and Personnel bid was for £8·7 last year and for £7·7 million this year. Last year, an additional £3·4 million was sought for the Northern Ireland Statistics Research Agency’s running costs; the figure for this year is £3·5 million.
Those similarities pose the question: is it anticipated that top-ups will always be available? Having pointed to the similarities, I must mention some exceptions, as it is often the exception that proves the rule. Last year OFREG was looking for an additional £355,000 for publicity and consultancy. This year the original provision was £527,000, but now it is seeking an additional £890,000. It strikes me that that requires an explanation.
It is also important to focus particular scrutiny on the figure for superannuation and other allowances. I have spoken on this area and asked questions about it before. Page 77 mentions:
"redundancy and early retirement costs to former civil servants",
part of which is funded by Her Majesty’s Treasury. Last year there was an original provision of £5·5million, which was increased in the Supplementaries by £7·8 million giving a total of £13·3 million. This year the original provision was £3·7 million, and now, in front of us, it is seeking an increase of £97·9 million, giving a total of £101·6 million. The type of escalation in those figures requires an explanation, particularly in view of the recent publicity over certain golden handshake or golden goodbye settlements that have been reached in some sectors of the public service.
The escalation in those figures requires an explanation, particularly given the amount of recent publicity over golden handshake or golden goodbye settlements that have been reached in some public-service sectors. Questions can justifiably be asked.
To create a situation in which we get things right and get our heads around the Supplementaries and the budgeting process, we need to look at the comments in the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report for 1999-2000 and read across from that report into the supplementaries. Changes in procedure and in Departments mean that that is not easy to do. However, some interesting facts emerge from an attempt.
A number of surpluses in the different Departments are obvious at the year-end of the auditor’s report. For example, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure had a £5·2 million surplus. Last year it spent £153 million and had a surplus of £5·2 million, yet this year there is an estimate of £175·5million. Where is the read across between what is spent in a particular financial year and the estimate for provision for the subsequent year? There should be some connection, some reason, for deciding, on whatever basis, on a particular figure. The industrial support and regeneration account of the IDB had a surplus of £97·6million. The board spent £144 million last year. Social security is an interesting one. It had a surplus of £97·5 million when the various heads are added together.
I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response. However, if year in, year out there can be surpluses, and if the figure spent in a particular financial year does not appear to have any real bearing on the figure provided for the subsequent year, the impression given is of a certain laxity in budgeting for any particular service. One can see under £7 million in loss statements last year, of which £5·2million lay in the IDB’s Vote B. Analysing the reasons behind those losses poses questions on the proper financial controls applied throughout the Departments. If the respective Committees were able to perform their scrutiny roles properly, perhaps we would be in a better position to get to grips with the reasoning behind those losses. It would provide us all with a better opportunity for transparency in dealing with the issues.
In mentioning the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report, I must draw attention to the fact that he found it necessary to qualify six accounts, some of them not for the first time. The common fault line that appears to run through the reasons for those qualifications was the lack of proper financial control. That resulted in payments being made without invoices or sufficient evidence to support them, clerical errors and weaknesses in tendering and purchasing procedures et cetera. Those are matters that we as an Assembly have to try to ensure are got right sooner rather than later. This apparent sloppiness with regard to accounting in certain areas cannot continue. It has to be right, and it has to be seen to be right.
This year the Water Service is seeking more money. Last year it was forced into the situation of having to make an ex gratia payment of £450,000 because it had not got basic facts right. It had not completed land acquisition but had employed contractors to start work. It had not obtained planning permission, yet had employed contractors. The sum of £450,000 may appear to be small fry in the overall Budget for Northern Ireland, but to the man, woman and child in the street it is not. To those waiting for hip replacements, or for a social care package, or whatever example one chooses, that is a large amount of money.
Through our constituency offices, we are all aware of individuals who feel they are being short-changed by Departments not giving them that to which they are entitled. Those individuals who are deprived in our society feel that it is important that this type of error or laxity cannot be seen to be happening again and again.
I mentioned social security. According to the last audit report, over-payments of £65 million were made. That has a dreadful impact on the socially deprived in our society. It makes them want to weep and question what is going on. We, as the custodians of the public purse, have got to be absolutely sure that what we are doing — and what the Departments are doing in our name — is seen to be above board, absolutely beyond reproach, transparent and accountable.
I do not highlight these issues to give the impression of being overly critical. I recognise that, by and large, there is absolute transparency and accountability in the vast bulk of the issues confronting departments. We should take great pride in the operation of our civil servants. I do not think that can be stressed heavily enough. However, I raise those points so that the Minister, in reflecting and dealing with the issues that confront him, can recognise something he said in an earlier debate — that the money is in the system to do various things that we need to do now. We need to do those things now because, in many respects, the Assembly and the Executive are seen to be on trial. People want to see fundamental change, and they want to see it now. In many respects, they cannot wait for an uncertain number of years. The money is in the system, and I believe that the Minister, his officials and the Executive should be doing their utmost to ensure that wastage and inefficiency are cut out now, so that the schemes that are necessary to go ahead can do so.
Other Members and myself have referred to the increase in the regional rate. Some said that the money was there and that the figure could be reduced. I found it sad that it had to be an exercise akin to pulling teeth to get the necessary movement and the necessary reductions in the rate increase. I regret that, due to illness, I was unable to be here to thank the Minister for the small mercy on 12 February. The sudden pain in my stomach reminded me of the practice of sticking pins into little puppets, and I wondered if somebody was doing that to lay me low so quickly, just when we were about to deal with the rates.
Interestingly, on the same day, a Standing Order was moved with great haste through the House, which now means that accelerated passage will be the rule — rather than the exception — for the most important issue we deal with. That was a fundamental error. We should have been concentrating on getting procedures right rather than changing the rules to have accelerated passage as the norm. With every matter other than finance, Ministers will have to explain to the House why they are deciding on accelerated passage. Unfortunately, I missed that debate and did not get the opportunity to make my point. I just mention it now en passant, as it were.
I want to make a bit of a party political plea on a constituency basis, as other Members have. The money is in the system for the railway that Mr Poots mentioned, namely, the Knockmore line. The consultation period on that is coming to a close. The big issue that has to be considered by the Executive and by the Minister for Regional Development and his colleagues is that of hardship. Is there hardship, or will there be hardship, if that line closes? Clearly, the answer to that question is "Yes". The people of Glenavy, Ballinderry, Lisburn and Crumlin will suffer hardship.
It is a totally backward step. It is reminiscent of the old Beeching plan, under which they were shutting every line that appeared. I do not accept this talk of mothballing. How many railway lines have been mothballed and then reopened? None. The money is available in the system to keep that line open, and that should be done. That message should come out from the consultation, and I hope — and I am not making a political point — that the Minister will go to the Executive, on this one issue, to argue the case with his Colleagues and ensure that that money is made available. It is in the system. He should ask for it, beg for it, and get it. That will be recognised by the people in the Lagan Valley constituency, and others, who will suffer hardship if that particular line is forced to close.
The question of out-of-town shopping developments has been raised. We in Lagan Valley are fortunate in many respects. We have a regional shopping centre, known as Sprucefield. However, things can be pushed a little too far. If development continues at Sprucefield at the rate that is currently proposed, it will be the death knell of a number of the shops and core businesses in the centre of our town. Is that progress? In my book, it is not. The character of our towns and villages needs to be retained, and therefore out-of-town shopping should be restricted. I ask the Minister to look at the type of proposals that Minister Dempsey in the South is currently considering, or may already have put in place, for restricting the size of such developments.
Reference has already been made to the rates. I will leave that to the rate revaluation that will be coming up. I hope that they get their sums right this time. Out-of-town shopping centres were not included in the last revaluation. I imagine that they have been riding rather easily until now, and I hope that that will be rectified. How are Thiepval Barracks, Maghaberry Prison and other Crown properties of that ilk dealt with in regard to rates, compared to the rate base in Lagan Valley or the borough of Lisburn? I understand that they may not be paying their full whack, yet I know for a fact that their bins have to be emptied. There is an issue here with regard to the rating system —

Mr Donovan McClelland: Allow me to interrupt for a moment. There is no time limit on Members’ contributions. However, given the number of Members, especially from the smaller parties, who have indicated a desire to contribute, if each of them chooses to speak for 25 minutes there will be very serious difficulty in including them all.

Mr Seamus Close: I appreciate that point. If and when we reach the stage of having full and proper scrutiny opportunities through the Committees, and other opportunities to really get to grips with this, long speeches will not be necessary. Anyway, 25 minutes is not that long. I was unaware that so many people wanted to speak; a few names must have been added recently, so I shall conclude.
Are town plans likely to be superseded by the metropolitan plan? How much money will be wasted? The Knockmore-Sprucefield road link is needed to ease congestion in Lisburn. The building of the road has been put back again and again — sometimes, we are told that the work is on a 15-year plan, sometimes that it is on a 25-year plan. Could the Minister use his good offices, with the money that is available, to bring that plan to fruition sooner?

Prof Monica McWilliams: I welcome the Estimates and the move to resource accounting. It will be easier for Committees and the Assembly to follow Budget lines.
As with other Estimates, I have studied the appropriations-in-aid. We should consider that carefully as we move towards private finance initiatives. Although I have gone through the Budget and the Estimates, I find it difficult to follow how much appropriation-in-aid comes to any Department through the sale of public land and buildings. That is an important issue. Constituency offices receive many telephone calls about what has happened to public land — whether it has been sold and, if so, how much money has gone to the public purse and how much to the developers. We need to ask such questions, so I welcome the move to a new way of budgeting.
I am concerned that much of the new money is available because of poor planning. Some of the circumstances were unforeseen and were beyond any Minister’s control. However, there were failures. I am concerned by the fact that £10 million of slippage money has appeared in the Department of Education’s budget as a result of the failure to provide schools with the information technology that they needed. Was that because of a failed public-private partnership? If so, how that will be addressed in the future? I would welcome a response now or in writing.
We should pay attention to the Estimates because they involve a huge sum of money — £196 million. I echo other Members’ concerns that they have not had enough opportunity to scrutinise the figure. However, it is good that we have the opportunity, unlike Westminster, to debate spring Estimates. The more that we debate the issue in this Assembly, the more the public will see that we are trying to be open and transparent and that we can be held accountable for where the money goes.
I am concerned that the Estimates for the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety show that £5 million went to deal with clinical negligence. That could not have been foreseen. However, I understand that that is not the total. One figure mentioned to the Committee was close to £20 million. We will have to pay more attention to that; huge sums of money are being reallocated to cover costs that arise from negligence.
It is also interesting to note, as regards the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, that £2·5 million will not now be spent on the Springvale campus. Is it the case that this Department, like many other Departments in respect of capital investment, could not spend the money in time, or is it that the money was no longer required? The latter would be unusual. Given that it is such a substantial sum, the response will be interesting.
I echo Dr Birnie’s views on the moneys that have now been made available as a result of a reduction in unemployment or because of the inability to market some programmes well enough, particularly those concerning management development. As Dr Birnie said, Northern Ireland requires a great deal of training, if it requires anything. It is sad that the money could not be spent, given that a budget was set up for training. The funds will now have to go elsewhere, to be spent by others before the end of March.
The Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment requires an extra £1·5 million because of changes due to devolution. It would be interesting to know — as it would for other Departments also — what is meant by changes due to devolution. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure has had a substantial amount of money given to it because it is a new Department, and because of changes due to devolution. The Supplementary Estimates indicate that the £1·5 million is also in respect of the private finance initiatives (PFIs). We need to be able to answer questions from the public about what that money is spent on in relation to PFI.
Finally — this is a repeated plea of mine — we need to change the headings used for the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. The largest sum of money is the £12 million under the heading "Community Relations, Equality and Victims – Current". We need to see that figure broken down further. We need to know how much is going to the Equality Commission, towards human rights, to community relations or to the Victims Unit itself.
That organisation must have been doing a very good job because it required very little money in this Estimate. It speaks volumes about excellent planning. However, every time I speak about this matter I say that the entire budget for those areas should not be on one line. A breakdown should be given as it is in other Departments.
Inasmuch as I welcome the Estimates, I remain concerned that much of the document refers to poor planning in Departments and substantial slippage as a result of some failed initiatives, particularly in PFIs.

Mr Donovan McClelland: I intend to review the debate situation at 1.30 pm. We may continue after that time because of the large number of Members wishing to speak.

Mr James Leslie: In this debate, there is the risk of trotting the same horses around the paddock again. The same applies to tomorrow’s debate on the Budget. Technically, we are rounding off a Budget that we did not scrutinise. Next year, when we deal with the spring Estimates, we will be rounding off the Budget that will be laid before the House tomorrow. In that respect, we should remind ourselves that, at the behest of the Finance and Personnel Committee, we had a thorough debate on that Budget in November, with a view to making it possible to influence the setting of the final Budget.
It is the case that by the time you get to the Estimates the Budget has been set and you are simply putting the agreement made a few months earlier into prescriptive form. Overall, the structure we have devised during the course of the past six months is probably quite good. Next year, when we have a full run at it, including an opportunity for Committees to do their work, between Easter and the first round of Budget setting in the autumn, I hope that we will do a great deal to influence the shape of the Budget.
I wish that I could echo Assembly Member McWilliams’s confidence that moving to resource accounting will make it easier to understand the accounts. I suspect that it will make it much more difficult. Maybe after a couple of years the clouds will lift, but I am certainly not looking forward to wrestling with the first edition. I am glad that there is some parallel running of the old system to give us a clue in the first year of the new system.
What will be significant in those resource accounts will be the valuing of Government assets. I hope that the ability to readily see the extent of our assets may cause people to think creatively about those assets and whether we are making the best use of them and examine opportunities for looking at how we raise and spend our money in several different ways. That may in itself provide some of the answers as to how we manage to get a quart out of a pint pot. If we were to take all the demands for money made by Departments, Members and Committees seriously, we would be at least trying to fill a quart with a pint pot.
On the much discussed subject of the Barnett formula, I and other members of the Finance and Personnel Committee were in London last week. We had the opportunity to — very informally, I am glad to say — kick this around with one or two Members at Westminster.
We need to be cautious in addressing this issue. There are very real risks of stirring up a hornets’ nest. What one has to remember is that the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales, the English regions, the Mayor of London — every single one of them — have the same intention: they want more money in their pot.
Therefore, all things being equal, it will have to come out of somebody else’s pot, and not one of those entities will agree to any money being taken out of their pot. We have to approach this with some caution. The only other thing that can happen is that the overall size of the pot has to be increased, and there is only one way that that can happen — by increased taxation. I have said in the House before, and I will continue to say, that I am exceedingly averse to increased taxation. The way to stimulate the economy is by lowering taxation, not by raising it.
In the context of the debate about rates, I am relieved that it has not proved necessary to make the increases that were originally outlined to the rates. If there is a realistic opportunity of getting a better outcome on Barnett or some revised formula, we may have to do that. We should be aware that that would almost certainly be in the context of higher rates. However, we have to ask ourselves, if we are not likely to get the better outcome, whether it might be better to get by on less and not have what one might call the negative stimulus of ever-increasing rates. Those matters require serious consideration.
I also remind the House that when you increase tax, whether it is rates or anything else, you are making an assumption that the Government can spend the money for the better public good than people could if it were left in their pockets. That is an exceedingly doubtful contention, and there is only a tenuous link between cost and benefit. That became apparent on the mainland last year when we saw protests over the level of tax on fuel. Some 75% of the cost of fuel for motor cars is taxation.
Some Members regularly draw attention to issues in relation to targeting social needs and targeting particular areas of deprivation. I am aware of the problem. There are a quite a number of such places in my constituency. Unfortunately, Moyle District Council in North Antrim shares the highest unemployment rate in Northern Ireland with Strabane. I am conscious of the need to find some means to address that. However, it should be in the context of getting Northern Ireland’s unemployment rate down from its current level of about 5·5% — which is a big improvement in itself — to 3%. That figure is regarded as being fairly close to full employment in relation to those whom it is possible to employ. That is how we will be able to address most of these problems.
In addressing the issue, we must focus on our skills base and the provision of training in new skills. It is clear from the problems in agriculture and textiles that there are a number of skills for which there is less of a market — we cannot produce a product in Northern Ireland at a competitive price using those skills. We must therefore be proactive in finding ways to re-equip workers who have been adversely affected by those circumstances with other skills that can be applied to businesses that are in a growth phase. All Members will have noticed the situation that has arisen in Wales. A considerable number of steelworkers are being made redundant, and it looks as though there may be an opportunity to redeploy a significant number of them in part of the telecommunications industry.
We must be alert. We must be realistic about what is happening to our economy and to some of our traditional industries, and we must put measures in place to address those problems. It is not particularly helpful to the affected workers, or to anyone else, to start howling with anguish after the problem has manifested itself, when it is obvious that the problem is there right now. In that respect, I am particularly anxious about, and will continue to closely view, the allocation of moneys to the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment.
Rather than pre-empt tomorrow’s debate, or leave myself with nothing to say in it, I will conclude my remarks.

Mr John Dallat: I am pleased with the approach being taken by the DUP and the Alliance Party on out-of-town shopping centres. Mr Poots and Mr Close are to be congratulated for the concern that they expressed this morning about the uncontrolled development of such centres. They are, of course, representing the views of the 20,000 people employed in the independent retail sector. My only regret is that they failed to support the motion that I brought before the Assembly a few months ago on that very issue. Nevertheless, the views voiced today are important. It is to be hoped that a new motion, which will be guaranteed support from both the DUP and the Alliance Party, can soon be put before the Assembly. That would be a great source of comfort to the many small shops in towns and villages throughout Northern Ireland.
I now turn to the more important issues of services and how we spend our money. Tomorrow, there will be widespread support for increased powers for the public auditor. The Assembly can then have a handle on the millions of pounds expended by the bodies that draw on the public purse. The amount stated today, which the Comptroller and Auditor General requires, is £2,327,000. Will the Minister confirm that that amount includes the additional costs of carrying out the extra duties to which I referred and which I hope will be passed when the Assembly debates the Government Resources and Accounts Bill?
I impress upon the Minister the need for there to be no unnecessary delays on reports prepared by public auditor. I recognise that, as recently as last week’s Question Time, the Minister provided an undertaking that there would be no such hold-ups.
By way of example, I refer to a report on the Water Service that was published recently. The report took almost two years to agree. That is totally unacceptable and does not represent good value for money. Perhaps today would be a good time to send out a clear message to all Departments that when we allocate money to the Comptroller and Auditor General to ensure public money is well spent his reports should not be delayed. They must be made available at the earliest opportunity so that the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) can scrutinise them with a view to improving value for money. The Minister gave us an assurance that that would happen, and I simply emphasise that again.
However, when reports come before the PAC there must be more than just a little smack on the knuckles. Where serious bad practices are uncovered, they must be addressed, because it is only then that the public will recognise that the Assembly is making a real impact on how public money is being spent.
I refer to a serious report last week on serious deficiencies in the tendering procedures of the Northern Ireland Tourist Board (NITB), which led to printing contracts being awarded involving millions of pounds. Not only did the contracts go to a company whose chief executive is also chief executive of the NITB, they did not go to the person making the lowest tender. Those disclosures have undermined confidence in the NITB’s procurement procedures and call for action beyond a ticking off from the PAC.
No one is claiming impropriety, but there is little dispute that the chief executive, MrRoyBailie, should not be holding a key position in NITB while at the same time, in another capacity, providing millions of pounds of goods and services to NITB.
The money we allocate today to the Northern Ireland Audit Office must bring about real change if we are to conduct the financial affairs of our publicly funded bodies, and that includes NITB. To date, there is not enough evidence that things are about to change dramatically. That worries me and will no doubt worry the Assembly.
The PAC, under the chairmanship of Mr Billy Bell, has done a good job. However, the enormous energy applied by that Committee must not be ignored or undermined by reluctance, or by the bad practices which crept into Departments over 30 years of direct rule when there was limited opportunity to scrutinise or criticise Government expenditure.
The money allocated to the Northern Ireland Audit Office today will assist the better use of public money, but it also requires a determination to stamp out bad practices when they occur. If we deal with that issue, many of the concerns expressed today can be addressed with a view to providing better value for money. The Assembly can make a real impact by taking the reins and insisting that the standard of services provided are improved, and it can really make the changes necessary to get better value for money.

Mr William Hay: The lack of accountability has been highlighted in what has been announced this morning. The Committees have not had the opportunity to properly scrutinise what has been announced this morning. It is right that we, as public representatives, lay down a marker on that serious issue.
The Minister’s announcement last Monday concerned a reduction in the proposed 8% increase in the regional rate. The Minister fully explained how it was possible to reduce the regional rate. However, there was a head of steam building up in the public domain, especially in the small business community.
Reality struck when most councils worked out their rates estimates for the year. During our city council’s discussions on rates estimates and council expenditure, the Finance Minister’s announcement of 8% on the regional rate was uppermost in councillors’ minds. The council expressed concern about that announcement. The pressure from the small business community in Northern Ireland and local government agencies led to the Minister’s announcement last Monday. The announcement was welcomed by everyone — especially by those in local government and small business who are facing difficult decisions and challenges.
The Minister’s announcement on gap funding was also welcomed. This has been a problem for some time in Northern Ireland, especially since it became clear that Peace II was not going to hit the ground as quickly as was intended. There was panic when most people realised that. Most of those involved in projects, especially those in the voluntary sector, realised that by the end of March there would be serious difficulties for the work that they had been doing under difficult circumstances and for many of the projects that were funded under Peace I.
Will the Minister tell the House how much money is left for the various organisations under Peace I? I am open to correction, but I understand that that money must be spent by the end of June. The public is concerned that if the Peace I money is not spent — and we are talking about several millions of pounds — it will be taken from Northern Ireland.
Members and the Minister have been lobbied by various groups and organisations about the Peace I money. That money could provide funding for the voluntary and community sectors until Peace II hits the ground. It is difficult for organisations to understand why money cannot be made available when there is still a huge amount to be drawn down and spent under Peace I.
Will the Minister indicate how much money is still available, by what date it has to be spent and whether Northern Ireland will lose that money if it is not spent?
There are a number of district partnerships in the Province. Some have spent 60% of their allocation, and others have spent 70%, but there are partnerships that have spent as little as 50%. That is a worrying trend of which the Minister must be aware.
In the context of regional development, I welcome the additional resources announced for roads maintenance.
(Mr Deputy Speaker [Sir John Gorman] in the Chair)
However, the allocation falls short of what is needed. It does not go far enough. The Minister has inherited a 30-year underspend in Roads Service generally. The same applies to all other Departments. However, the problem of resources for road maintenance continually comes up in the Regional Development Committee, and it is causing deep concern.
The other worrying problem is the reduction in capital expenditure for RoadsService because of delays in the commencement of schemes. When those schemes eventually get the go-ahead, will money then be made available? We do not know which schemes have been delayed and why they have been delayed. There are capital schemes across the Province which need to be looked at seriously and which need expenditure. The Minister must address that.
The Regional Development Committee has discussed the Knockmore railway line. It is wrong for the hon Member SeamusClose to say that railway lines that have been mothballed stay mothballed. That is not the case. During direct rule, Ministers had a policy of closing railways across NorthernIreland. If they could get away with it, there is no doubt that they would still be doing it today. When the Regional Development Committee examined the matter, it was obvious that that was its clear policy.
The Minister for Regional Development and the Committee are conscious of the need for a good public service rail facility across NorthernIreland. Railways are uppermost in our minds. People need a reason for moving from the private car to public transport. The Minister and the Committee are committed to looking seriously at the whole railway network. Other Committee members have raised concerns about how the Knockmore railway line issue has been handled. The Committee is awaiting a number of reports, and we will be deliberating in the future. It is wrong to say that when lines close they are mothballed. Under direct rule that would have been the case, but under the Assembly and the Minister for Regional Development that will not be the case.
Generally we very much welcome the Minister’s announcement of extra expenditure. He will never please everybody, but if he pleases everybody sometimes it may be enough to get him elected.

Sir John Gorman: I have another 15 Members on my list. The debate must end at 2.30 pm, and the Minister is entitled to 40 minutes to sum up. I suggest that from now on we limit speeches to eight minutes.

Mr Gerry McHugh: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. It is ironic that I get up at the moment that the time is reduced to about 50% of what I need. I always like to touch on the different Departments, as it is often the only opportunity that we get while we have Committee struggles with which to deal.
Take the Department of Health, for instance. The trusts have got an extra £18 million, and they have to decide what they want to do with that. They have been struggling with their debts and have also been told by the boards that they have to keep within their limits. Take the western area, where there has been a continual loss of services in places such as Enniskillen and Omagh. Services are continually being drained away from us. Quite often you wonder whether the pressure is on all the time for people to actually pay for themselves, rather than letting the NHS do what it is supposed to do. There seems to be a drive towards that all the time.
We are talking about resources and the price of resources. Private operations are taking place in NHS theatres. These are all questions people will ask. At the end of the day, who is paying for what? It all comes out of the same budget. NHS patients have to wait and suffer. Some trusts, such as one in my area, are in the business of leasing land, while at the same time trying to acquire land in case we ever have to build a new hospital, which I think will be necessary in that part of the Six Counties. At a later date, the budget from here might have to be used in a much greater proportion than the amount that they are going to gain from the leasing to buy back land that might be needed. I want to flag that up because it is a very important issue regarding the budget for the Department and for the trust.
I always welcome any extra spending on education. However, central administration funding has been mentioned again, and boards have got considerably more. It is administration versus what goes into the school or learning. It looks as though we have 5% going to children or learning and 95% going to administration and pay. There is a certain difficulty in people’s minds about where administration is going and why there has to be so much emphasis on it.
Mr Poots described Irish-medium education as wasted funds. Irish-medium education is a growing area and Irish is an important language. Germany and other countries consider their local language to be number one, and they will not allow any movement on that. That is what we should be doing. Social inclusion is part of the Good Friday Agreement and part of the successful future that we need through all the negotiated points of the agreement.
I also welcome money going to the libraries. That is important. I often wonder whether there is as much going to libraries in rural areas as there is to libraries in urban areas. People in rural areas often have to rely on mobile libraries.
I am a member of the Agriculture Committee. Without going over everything that we talked about, I want to say that there is nothing extra for farmers now, just as there was nothing in the last funding round. It points out the commitment of Government to the future. There has to be a change in future Budgets. The Department has asked for more money for administration costs; that is where the difficulty lies. The Department is bound up in administration, and farmers find that taxing and expensive. It has to move away from red tape, as do all the others.
As was mentioned, there is a social services surplus — there has been year after year, even going back to the days of direct rule. However, in many instances people are failing to receive the money to which they are entitled, because they are in weak and vulnerable situations, and bureaucratic pressures target them in a drive to save money in relation to fraud. The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety will have to look at that.
Fermanagh lost another 90 jobs last week at the Aldervale textile factory, and there were further losses in Newry. I have asked the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, as well as other bodies, to look at the facts behind the job losses and to understand that that is not something that we are making up, it is a fact. I want to see action to help put that right, and there must be equality of spending in the region, and the wrongs in relation to job losses must be put right. There must be parity in respect of the money that is drawn down for us at a local level and on an east/west basis. The situation with regard to the Industrial Development Board (IDB) and the Local Enterprise Development Unit (LEDU) — which is not delivering for us in those areas — needs to be looked at. Obviously they are going through a phase of change, and we hope that that will help to deliver something different and more positive to us in the future.
As regards the Department for Regional Development, the roads maintenance budget in the Fermanagh and South Tyrone area is vastly underfunded. The area has a small percentage of class A roads that require gritting all the time, so we get much less from that budget than Belfast, for example. There has been talk about equality in road budgets, but there is an increasing failure and weakness in the road structure at all levels from here to Fermanagh. The number of pot holes is increasing, and many people are asking about compensation for damage to their vehicles. People are taxed for road maintenance, and they are also taxed when they have to fix their vehicles when they are damaged. That is happening more often, and more money must be allocated to rural areas in the roads budget. The Department needs to look again at how things are done in order to try to save money.
Rail transport is important. My constituency does not have rail links, but if it did we would be more positive about the budget for that.

Mr Eamonn ONeill: On behalf of my Committee, I welcome those alterations that have produced additional funding for the Department — especially increased provisions in research and consultation exercises and in capital spending for libraries.
In addition, I stress our gratitude to the Department, as well as the Minister of Finance and Personnel, for providing a considerable increase in funding to address urgent health and safety issues at sports grounds. As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that is of major concern to many people.
Likewise, we should record our gratitude for the increased community involvement finance for millennium celebrations.
In line with the Committee’s report — the long-awaited inland fisheries report, which I hope to see finally published before the beginning of March — money has been made available for a scientific study of that matter. That is necessary to enable us to ascertain the impact of hydroelectric schemes on river fisheries. It is a major step forward in recognising our aspiration for clean energy sources, while ensuring that those do not disturb the quality of river life or any related environmental aspects.
On the Vote on Account, some £71·4million has been indicated for the forthcoming year. We welcome the increases for areas such as libraries, health and safety in sports grounds, the languages body and the attempts to provide access to and participation in the arts by young people, especially those from the more disadvantaged sections of the community.
With regard to the Department’s total bid, I must emphasise that, although it is a small Department, it considers the bid to be modest in comparison with it’s assessment of need. We therefore argue for as much sympathy as possible from the Department of Finance and Personnel. It got little more than 25% of what it asked for, and for a small Department that is something that merits attention.
There is a great need for funding to buy out the commercial fish nets from around the Northern Ireland coastline. Unfortunately, we were unable sufficiently to impress that need to secure the necessary funds. There are many things that could impact on the dreadful condition of our wild salmon stocks and other fish species, such as sea trout. The most important thing that we could do to change that downward trend in the population graphs is remove coastal netting licences. Our inquiry — and we are awaiting the publication of the report on that — has underlined the importance of fishing as part of a recreational tourist industry. That is important to the economy of Northern Ireland and to the anglers. We are coming from a low base, although the potential for economic development is great and meaningful, as indeed is the revenue return to the Department of Finance and Personnel.
On behalf of the Committee, I emphasise that we are concerned that the spending plans do not include any funding for safety improvements to existing motorcycle road racing facilities. This matter has taken up a lot of time in the Committee and has become one of great public concern over the past 12months or more, which saw many tragic deaths that spurred the Minister and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to set up a special team to look into it. The Department has made a number of recommendations, which cannot be implemented without a considerable degree of financial support. This issue requires urgent attention, and I hope that by my re-emphasising its importance, it will not get lost. The Committee generally respects the difficulties that the Department of Finance and Personnel faces. However, the bids that we have made have not succeeded to the extent that we would like.
I listened to the debate with interest. There was much comment on the control, monitoring and scrutiny of budgetary activity. Quite justifiably, great emphasis was placed on the elimination of waste and poor accounting procedures.
I was particularly interested in the Public Accounts Committee and its recent work concerning the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. Its report drew particular attention to the Department’s accounting procedures, and it was quite right to do that. However, many Committee members, in their subsequent comments, put an unfortunate spin on the activities of some of the community groups involved. On behalf of those hardworking voluntary groups, I must say that a poor impression was left.
I have not been the first today to introduce Dickensian references. In criticising a particular scheme in Ardglass, the comments of Seamus "Uriah Heep" Close about delivering money around each individual member made for a damaging statement. We are all anxious to ensure the best in public accountability, that everything is open to scrutiny, and that better value for money is achieved. I hope, however, that when something deserves attention we will be more careful about how our findings are presented.

Mr Kieran McCarthy: Most of the important points have been covered. My deputy leader, Mr Seamus Close, spoke eloquently for almost half an hour. However, I have a couple of points to make.
Mr McHugh, Mr Hay and Mr Poots spoke about the underfunding of the roads system. Although I welcome the Minister’s speech, in which he said that funding has been provided for a new vessel to operate between Portaferry and Strangford, some of my constituents are still disappointed at the Assembly’s reluctance to even consider the possibility of a bridge across Strangford Lough.
I am particularly concerned about the apparent inequality in the Department for Regional Development’s distribution of funds to different areas of Northern Ireland. My constituency of Strangford would appeal to the Minister for Regional Development to allocate more funding for road maintenance in rural areas. Modern, large vehicles, tractors and milk tankers have destroyed rural roads, and will continue to do so.
I do not know whether the Minister for Regional Development knows that some milk distributors are considering introducing even broader tankers. Someone mentioned the gritting of roads. If broader tankers are introduced, there will be no need for gritting, because rural roads will be so badly cut up. Such vehicles destroy rural roads.
The Roads Service division in my constituency does not seem to have the funding to repair roads or for simple minor road-widening schemes. Thus, we have an outcry from constituents whose cars are wrecked when they use those roads. As has been said, compensation is hard to come by. I ask Mr Durkan to ensure that Mr Campbell distributes funding on a fair and equitable basis.
Secondly, I would like to mention health issues. Again, I welcome the new investment, which is going into the provision of a decent Health Service, but much more needs to be done. We need more funding for cancer research, for example. We need more ambulances. Many other facilities in the Health Service need much more funding.
I conclude by putting down a marker. I must impress on the Minister that we look forward to the implementation of the report of the Royal Commission so that in due course we will provide free residential and nursing care for our elderly. That is a major problem which needs to be acted upon, and I hope that it will come before the Assembly soon.
I finish by welcoming the Minister’s statement. I hope that he will take what I have said into consideration.

Sir John Gorman: I congratulate you on finishing in less than half your time. It is a good example.

Mr Gardiner Kane: Although I readily accept the complexity and scale of the task of compiling budgetary proposals, I assume that areas in the scope of the Budget have been less than provided for and that that will serve as a lesson for the Minister and his Department of Finance and Personnel in the future. These areas where lessons may be learnt are no doubt numerous and should be given consideration. No one will draw comfort from bogus percentage increases, which, when considered carefully, produce only minimal changes in funding levels.
I fail to see how the vision steering group will be able to provide the long-term and medium-term strategies that it is hoped will put the agriculture industry back on any kind of firm footing. That message is interpreted in the industry to mean that low priority is being given to the industry and its problems. Frankly, I fail to see how the allocation of £10 million will be enough to enable us to implement the recommendations of the vision group that we must implement if we are to tackle problems of this magnitude. Furthermore, the figure fails to account for the percentage of the sum that will be swallowed by administration.
I risk being repetitive when I mention how vital farm capital investment grants are. Let me just qualify the term "farm capital investment" by saying that this is not an attempt to provide every farm in the Province with state-of-the-art farmyards and livestock accommodation. It is a call for assistance to reverse the decline that has occurred on farms during the past five years. For example, on a local farm, when an official from the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development arrived to inspect animals for the first stage beef special premium scheme, he was accompanied by a health and safety inspector. Why? If the facilities were substandard on that farm, how do you blame the farmer, and who is listening to the calls for assistance anyway?
Finally, despite announcements about research on the eradication of tuberculosis and brucellosis in cattle, the inadequacy of funding has been demonstrated over the past week. I say this with reference to Greenmount Agricultural College, where over 200 breeding animals have been slaughtered because of an outbreak of brucellosis. Farming could do without that level of uncertainty about those diseases. It says something about the Department of Finance and Personnel’s allocation for research when the diseases continue to be unchecked. It also says something about the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development’s housekeeping when an outbreak occurs in one of our agricultural colleges.
I conclude by thanking the Minister for his presentation.

Sir John Gorman: Thank you, Mr Kane. That was creditably brief.

Mr George Savage: I welcome the Minister’s comments. However, the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee did not get the opportunity to discuss the papers in question, so I cannot respond on its behalf. The Supplementary Estimates are a housekeeping exercise that are designed to obtain formal approval of decisions on the reallocation of funds following the various monitoring rounds. From that perspective, the additional funds announced for agriculture, following the monitoring reviews, will be contained in the supplementary figures sought.
As Deputy Chairman of the Agriculture Committee, I must comment on the notice given with the papers. Members of other Committees will agree that there has been no time for informed debate at Committee level. Our Committee was given little opportunity to participate in the Budget process, including the monitoring rounds, so we will be pushing for greater involvement in the 2001-02 financial year. We will also be seeking, at an appropriate stage, information on expenditure from the Department for Regional Development’s budget. The true value will then be seen of the additional allocations which we are being asked to support today.
We hear of the huge amount of money to be channelled into agriculture, but the entire farming industry in Northern Ireland needs to be given an injection. The industry requires environmental schemes as well as restructuring to streamline services. I also ask the Minister to consider seriously the proposal for a long-term, low-interest loan scheme, which would give the entire industry a whole new lease of life. Such a scheme could stand alone as it would structure itself.
Another emerging issue, which has been touched upon by many Members, is the state of the Province’s roads. My own constituency of Upper Bann is one of the fastest growing areas outside Belfast. The increase in traffic and industry in that area is placing a good deal more pressure on our roads. An in-depth review of our infrastructure is needed, and I hope that our roads will benefit from such a review. The Roads Service’s regional offices inform us that they are prepared to carry out developments, but that they are prohibited by a lack of finance.
The lack of Water Service schemes is also a major problem. Since Christmas and "the big frost", a mile-long stretch of road in my area has become covered in patches where pipes have burst, which can be seen approximately every three metres. An unbelievable amount of money has been spent on the maintenance of local water supplies. I presume that money has been made available for that purpose, because every other day there is a burst pipe in the area.
Many Members have highlighted work that needs to be done in different areas.
I welcome the news that money is going to be spent on a rail service. Over the past two days the rail service has been in the headlines because people have misused it in an attempt to make it difficult for others to use. I hope that a measure can be introduced so that those people who are making life miserable for our commuters can be taken to task for it. The system is being abused, and it could do without that abuse. I hope that all those issues will be taken on board.
Many matters have been discussed this morning, and I am not going to repeat them because I have seen Mr Durkan writing all morning. I do not want to add to his summing-up list, as long as he keeps Upper Bann to the forefront. Many things in my constituency need attention. However, there are level-headed people in various sectors in Upper Bann, and all they need is an injection of money. It does not take much to make a big difference. If that can be taken on board, the results that will flow will be unbelievable.

Mr Alban Maginness: Mr Savage implored the Minister to be mindful of Upper Bann. I would like him to keep North Belfast in his thoughts also.
I welcome the Minister’s speech today. It was delivered with characteristic skill and effectiveness. We are used to his skilful presentation and analysis — it is of great benefit to all who are trying to follow the detail of the figures presented today. Several of the announcements about additional expenditure are particularly welcome to the Regional Development Committee.
Resources are scarce and money is clearly in short supply. Nevertheless, resources have been used imaginatively, and the Minister and Departments have effectively maximised the use of those resources for the people of Northern Ireland. That is not to say that all is perfect and rosy in the garden — far from it. However, we welcome the additional funding to allow for free travel for the elderly from October 2001. We also welcome the £5·3 million for the road infrastructure, in particular for structural maintenance. The allocation of an additional £3·1 million for a modern integrated ticketing system for bus and rail is important if we are to have an effective co-ordination of rail and bus services and for the development of a realistic and effective public transportation policy. I greet the additional grant of £19·6 million for the rail infrastructure as a timely intervention by the Executive and the Minister of Finance and Personnel to support our under-resourced railway system. It will add significantly to the development of a public transportation strategy for Northern Ireland. The extra £14·5million for water and sewerage capital investment is heartening, as that area that has been starved of funding for many years.
Although that will not cure what is an immensely difficult problem, it is a welcome start. The £41·9million from the Chancellor’s initiative for capital road projects is necessary to relieve the road infrastructure problems in Northern Ireland. I welcome the additional £7million from the Executive programme funds’ infrastructure/ capital renewal fund to deal with these problems. That represents an overall increase of about 10% on expenditure over previous years, which the Regional Development Committee welcomes.
However, I wish to highlight remaining areas of underfunding. Most notably, if bus and rail services are to provide an effective, reliable and affordable public transportation system, major investment is required. The first stage of public consultation over the regional transportation strategy is due to be completed shortly. It is likely that a central theme — and I hope it will be a central theme — will be a public transportation system that supports a socially inclusive and vibrant economy. That cannot be realised without the required financial investment. Therefore, I ask the Minister of Finance and Personnel to give it his immediate attention. The draft Programme for Government recognises the importance of an effective road infrastructure to support a modern and vibrant economy. Consequently, it is important that funding is targeted at existing bottlenecks along key transport corridors such as Toome, which the Minister for Regional Development knows is a top priority, as does the Minister of Finance and Personnel.
The draft programme of work also states that we will undertake a programme of road maintenance, based on good practice treatments. What additional funding will be made available for that programme of work? Water and sewerage have consistently been underfunded, and it is estimated that an additional £3billion will be required over the next 10years. The extreme weather conditions that we suffered recently have shown that the water and sewerage infrastructures are not capable of coping with the problems that have arisen. They require immediate attention and major investment, and I urge the Minister to look at those favourably.
I welcome the additional funding available in the Executive programme funds’ infrastructure/capital renewal fund — a total of £7million this year, £40million next year and £100million the following year. How will that funding support the Department for Regional Development’s priorities, which are largely infrastructural? Secondly, how will it support the findings of both the regional development strategy and the regional transportation strategy? Finally, how will the Department for Regional Development and other Departments have access to the fund? The Minister must give clear advice on the criteria that will be used for that.

Mr Danny Kennedy: I welcome the opportunity to participate in this important debate. It is clear that many Members are interested in having a say on where money ought to be spent and how it should be made available. We welcome the opportunity this presents to us, in that spending priorities can now be made by a locally elected Assembly. There are a range of issues that Members have already mentioned, such as education, health and transport. Of particular concern to me, however, is that MrDurkan should make money available to his ministerial colleagues — SirRegEmpey in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, and Dr Farren for his responsibilities in training and employment, given the sad news of the job losses at the Adria textile plant in Newry last Friday. A total of 165 jobs will be lost. Announcements of that nature are to be regretted, and it is important that the Ministers with responsibility for enterprise, trade and training should be given an opportunity to prove to the workforce — and to the people of Newry and the surrounding region — that the Assembly is interested, is concerned and will rightly allocate moneys towards redeployment and training and trying to attract inward investment to the Newry area.
Although the announcement was not completely unexpected, the manner in which it came was a shock — especially to the employees. I have some criticisms to make of Adria in that respect. It is regrettable that they kept their employees in the dark before the announcement was made, and they have a duty, therefore, to put proper procedures in place to allow for the retraining and alternative opportunities that we spoke of earlier.
I join my Colleague Mr George Savage in condemnation of the continuing rail disruption in my constituency of Newry and Armagh. The railway line is continually dogged by hoax bombs or by real bombs. Those present a real danger to local people, as well as a great deal of inconvenience to rail and road users, local inhabitants and the industrial sector. It is important to continue to highlight that behaviour of that kind is completely unacceptable. It is an indication that security levels should remain high in the south Armagh area, and therefore the Government ought not to be taking any pre-emptive strikes to remove any of the security installations. I wish to place that on the record, although I do so in the context of welcoming the indication from the Minister that there will be increased moneys made available to upgrade the rail network.
The people of Northern Ireland will want to see the Assembly work in practical ways. They will want us to prove that the substantial investment in public funds, which went into creating and sustaining the Assembly, was worthwhile and can be seen to have tangible results. Changes in the road infrastructure, health and education and all other aspects should be made as quickly as possible. I commend the Minister, wish him well and hope that he will remember the constituency of Newry and Armagh in any considerations of the allocation of finance.

Sir John Gorman: In the Chamber at the moment we have only one other Member to speak after Mr Clyde, and that is Ms Gildernew. Some of you have been saying nice things about the Finance Minister, but he has been sitting here taking notes since 10.30 am, and I am sure he would like some lunch. I would not be averse to the two Members finishing shortly, and then we will have a short suspension. The sacrosanct 2.30 pm start for Question Time is almost upon us.

Mr Wilson Clyde: I welcome the opportunity to add to this debate and to call for financial support to facilitate the provision of slip roads from Antrim Hospital onto the M2. For too long, the people of South Antrim have been forced to endure long and unnecessary detours from the hospital, across the town, before joining the motorway that runs adjacent to the hospital. I understand that the Department for Regional Development would look favourably on the construction of slip roads. That would significantly shorten journeys and provide easy access for ambulance journeys to specialist services in Belfast hospitals.
Not only would that provide a more rapid response for the Northern Ireland Ambulance Service attending emergency situations, but it could well mean that a life could be saved. I call on the Assembly to give serious consideration to road provisions that would have the support of not only the local community and patients using Antrim Hospital, but the United Hospital Trust. The availability of funding would allow proposals to move ahead immediately. It would not only improve the quality of health services, but allow for optimum performance at all times.
I also appeal to the Assembly to make money available for more orthopaedic beds in the Royal Victoria Hospital. Currently, elderly people with broken limbs have to wait in Antrim Hospital for up to six days before admittance for surgery in Belfast. Also, patients attending the fracture clinic in Antrim Hospital were sent home on Wednesday 7 February because there was no doctor available to supervise the removal of the plaster casts. For people in their 70s and 80s, that is far from acceptable.

Ms Michelle Gildernew: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Far be it from me to keep the Minister from his lunch. I welcome the Minister’s statement. It has been a valuable exercise. That we now have locally elected Ministers making the decisions about where money is spent has been of benefit to everybody.
One of my major concerns is the gap funding in the voluntary and community sectors. Although I welcome the £2·2 million that has been made available, there is still a serious shortfall in those sectors. Many groups have been doing invaluable work in the community and voluntary sectors, and those jobs are now on the critical list. Training, skills and experience could be wasted. Thousands of jobs are in danger, and people who have, for many years, carried out work that, by its nature, is difficult to quantify are in danger of losing their jobs. I want to see funding put on a secure footing. People do not know how long they will have jobs. The uncertainty in the sector is damaging.
Some people have to spend a great deal of time administering a system that is complicated, and working to as many as eight or 10 different sets of criteria for different funders. We must simplify it.
I would like the Minister to clarify a few points that arise from his comments last Monday. In relation to gap funding and room to manoeuvre, he mentioned projects that were not based on criteria that were as close as possible to those adopted in the new programmes, and where they do not succeed under the new peace programme. Are the criteria based on the old figures or the new figures? He mentioned a safety net that would be available if Departments needed additional spending power. Can he comment on that and on the cases in which an exit strategy for funding will be necessary? Some projects are not likely to come under the Peace II programme. I ask him to go into more detail on that. There has been a good deal of confusion over whether gap funding is based on the old criteria or the new and on how it is going to work. When will the new criteria be in place to allow the sector to evaluate and make bids?
Among the issues that concern the Social Development Committee is that of urban regeneration. Over the last few years, Belfast has benefited from most of the money spent in that context. I do not often find myself in agreement with the DUP, but Mr Poots was right when he said that a lot of that money is spent in Belfast and, to a lesser extent, in Derry. Meanwhile, towns and villages across the North are not benefiting from these resources.
Towns are struggling to encourage people to spend their money locally rather than drive to out-of-town shopping centres. I must declare an interest in town centre regeneration schemes because I am involved with one in Dungannon. If we fund these schemes, we may create a level playing field.
Housing does not feature in the Supplementary Estimates either, and that concerns me. There are still huge waiting lists, and 17% of social housing in Fermanagh is deemed unfit. Increases in homelessness are also continuing, and we are trying to introduce an updated system to eradicate fuel poverty. However, the pilot schemes have proved that, in this initiative, the rural community will be at a disadvantage. If we bring in half-measures, we cannot expect to end fuel poverty, and that will have a knock-on effect on education and health.
Poverty and social exclusion are among the worst indictments of our society, and unless real resources are channelled into the Department of Social Development the problems that have plagued the vulnerable in communities — the elderly, children, single parents — will continue.
Targeting social need objectives will not be met unless Departments take seriously their obligations. Our Budgets should reflect the needs of the marginalised and vulnerable in society.
Go raibh maith agat.

Mr Mervyn Carrick: I draw attention to the reduction in budgetary provision for watercourse management and flooding. Although there has been a £1·76 million reduction in the running costs of the Rivers Agency, capital provision has been increased by £1·56 million.
What provision has been made for the recommendations that will stem from the Lough Neagh management strategy? I refer particularly to the urgent need for flood control measures along the River Bann basin. It is vital that the plight of farmers and landowners be given the same weighting and consideration in respect of their production land as will be given to commercial fishing, tourism, recreation and conservation.
It is time that the Assembly showed some teeth in dealing with cross-cutting issues. Resources must be made available to address the raft of issues associated with the management and exploitation of our natural assets, especially Lough Neagh, which has been neglected over the past 50 years. An example of such neglect is the discharge of Lurgan sewage and effluent into Kinnego Bay via the Woodvale River over the past 60 years. There is evidence that the water quality in the harbour is poor and that there has been a build-up of silt on the bed of the harbour.
Resources are required for the removal of the contaminated layer on the lough bed. It must be removed if water quality is to recover. The relevant Department has been reluctant to clean up the harbour bed. If we hold to the view that the polluter pays, we must find the resources to enable that Department to carry out the work — if we wish to promote the lough for recreational and tourist purposes.
In addition to improving the water quality in the lough, there is the need to address the whole system of feeder rivers and watercourses in a strategic manner and examine new engineering solutions to alleviate flooding of agricultural land. A comprehensive study should encompass the economic cost benefits of releasing potential development land, especially around Portadown, which hitherto has blighted and stunted the natural growth of the town. I call on the relevant Department and on the Minister of Finance and Personnel to find the vital resources to enable that work to be carried out. We need to promote our greatest natural asset — Lough Neagh — as an attraction that will bring tourists and allow people to enjoy the recreational facilities and at the same time allow the farming community to enjoy the full use of their production land. We are not talking about taking additional wetlands into production; we are talking about preserving the traditional production land.
I will just touch on the issue of fraud and the haemorrhage from the public purse to which my colleague Seamus Close referred this morning. His comments have my full support. If additional administrative costs identified in the Minister’s statement are being directed to reduce fraud and block that haemorrhage, the Assembly will be doing the citizens of Northern Ireland a good turn.

Mrs Eileen Bell: I congratulate the Minister on the Budget statement and the wide ranging issues dealt with in it. Members have already covered the points I wished to make, so I will simply outline my comments, which, I hope, will be linked to the others.
With regard to education, I ask again where the moneys will be allocated for the implementation of the Burns review. I support the idea that resources will be given to all young people, through participation at school, so that they can reach the highest possible standards of educational achievements. I ask the Minister to encourage the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and the Minister of Education to ring-fence resources for the provision of non-teaching staff for special schools. We have been campaigning for that for some time, and no definite action has been taken so far. Children are suffering on a daily basis. I did compliment the action programme for education in the Programme for Government, and I hope the moneys are found to implement those proposals fully.
On the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, as a Committee of the Centre member I have to say that I would like an outline of specific resources. The many different remits — from human rights to victims, including the whole process of equality legislation — must have moneys available. Will there, for example, be adequate money available to implement the Bloomfield Report? Will the Equality Commission have enough money to enable it to carry out its important remit?
I have to support Mr Poots, who commented this morning on libraries provision. Of course, in my case, I would put forward Bangor library as an urgent priority because of the state of the building. I am aware that the Minister has promised action, but I want to use this opportunity to highlight again the conditions and the use of the library.
I welcome the funding allocated to the Department for Social Development for voluntary bodies and community groups. However, I again urge the Ministers in the Department of Finance and Personnel and the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to expedite the core funding under Peace II with our European partners.
My Colleague has spoken about the roads situation. I want to touch on the railways situation. That is one issue where there is all-party consensus. I ask again that we let people — especially those who travel on the railways — know exactly how the Department for Regional Development’s money will be allocated and spent.
I also express my disgust at the destructive actions on Saturday on the Belfast to Dublin railway line. If the people who disrupted the services felt they would destroy the feeling of camaraderie and friendship on both sides of the border, they were wrong. The team — thank goodness — and the thousands of supporters won through. I hope that the Minister will show strong support to Translink for its handling of the situation.
I finish by stating my support for my Colleague’s remarks on the timetabling of the exercise and the need for more consultation. Notwithstanding that, however, I congratulate the Minister and his Department on their work on the Budget process. It is a complicated process, and, as time goes on, we will, I hope, get it right.
We may still have concerns about the process, but the Estimates and Vote on Account show clearly the advantage of a devolved Assembly. We, as Assembly Members, can see the ways in which the money is being spent and how we can be answerable and accountable to our voters.
I support the two motions.

Sir John Gorman: We will suspend proceedings until Question Time at 2.30 pm. This debate will resume at 4.00pm. Judging by the voluminous notes that the Minister has taken, I guess that the remaining 55 minutes will be taken up mostly — if not wholly — by him.
The debate stood adjourned.
The sitting was suspended at 2.02 pm.
On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) —

Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister
Victim Support: Finance Allocation

1. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail allocation arrangements for the moneys announced for victim support.
(AQO824/00)


The Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister has made no allocation of money to Victim Support Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Office recently announced a support package of £1m for that organisation. Victim Support Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Office are responsible for the detailed arrangements concerning the use of that money.


Does the Deputy First Minister believe that the allocation of £6·67 million under Peace II funding to support victims is adequate in comparison with the cost to date of over £33·8 million for the Saville inquiry? Will the Deputy First Minister ensure that Peace II money reaches the real victims of terrorisism, and not the perpetrators of terrorism?


I am afraid that, with regard to this, the Assembly Member is comparing apples with pears. The reality is that no one in the devolved Administration has any responsibility for the Bloody Sunday tribunal. Our efforts should be directed to ensuring that money available for victims from Europe is used to the best effect.
In relation to the question of funding for victims’ groups, the devolved Administration is aware that the victims of violent action have been one of the most neglected sections in society over the past three decades. The Executive intend to ensure that, alongside other organisations operating in this field, victims’ groups have the capacity to access support and funding opportunities from Government, European and other sources.


I welcome the Deputy First Minister’s comments about victims. They are an important element in society. One hopes that the Executive will continue to give them proper support.
With regard to Peace II, what provision for victims does the Deputy First Minister see in it? Indeed,what remains from Peace I for the support of victims?


The Peace II programme will contain a specific measure for victims with funding of approximately £6·67 million. The closing date for applications for funding under Peace I was 31 December 1999, and therefore no money remains in Peace I for victim support. However, money already allocated can be spent until 31 December 2001.


Will the Deputy First Minister keep the early victims of violence in mind? Only small amounts of money were paid out then. For instance, an Armagh woman whose husband was shot had five sons. They received £500 each, which was an insult. Will the Deputy First Minister keep that in mind, and can that be rectified now by paying suitable moneys to those victims?


This is an important question in the sense that everyone in the Chamber has, I suppose, been astounded in the past by the way that people and families who suffered bereavement of that type did not have access to the type of support that was required.
The Member touched upon the crucial point of how we can effectively cater for the individual victim, as opposed to victims’ groups. In relation to both those parts of the question, we in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will certainly try to ensure, first, that people who choose to remain outside victims’ groups are not forgotten and, secondly, that those in victims’ groups will have the capacity and financial resources to develop the type of support that they most need.

Police Board

2. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail any discussions they have had with the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State regarding the establishment of the new Police Board.
(AQO855/00)


We have not jointly discussed that matter with the Prime Minister, the current Secretary of State or, indeed, his predecessor. However, our respective parties have, of course, met each of those named persons to discuss the issue.


Does the First Minister agree that the failure of the SDLP and Sinn Féin to offer their support to the Police Service is undermining confidence in the agreement? Is it not true that if the Ulster Unionist Party had taken the same attitude to the establishment of the Executive that those parties have taken to the Police Board, there would not even be an Assembly at the moment? Is it not a disgrace that at this difficult time, with pipe bomb attacks and parliamentary activity continuing, those who complain daily about the attacks have not got the decency or the moral courage to support the police now?


I understand the Member’s points, although I might have couched them in slightly different language. Everybody is anxious to see progress being made on the issue, especially for the last reason that the Member mentioned — namely, the violence that is occurring and, in particular, the unacceptable level of pipe bomb attacks by some Loyalist elements.
We congratulate the Royal Ulster Constabulary on the success that it has had against the pipe bombers, but I am concerned that the continuing uncertainty about policing arrangements will have the effect of undermining the effectiveness and morale of the RUC and limiting its ability to deal with that serious issue.


Will the Minister confirm that he would be totally opposed to the introduction into legislation of any retrospective powers of investigation for this Police Board? Does he agree that it would be unthinkable for the representatives of fully armed terrorist organisations to be allowed to participate, through the board, in the policing of Northern Ireland?


Order. Before giving the Minister the opportunity to reply, I remind Members that questions to Ministers — and I refer not just to this question — are supposed to refer to the Ministers’ areas of responsibility. There is a tendency for Members to go outside that and ask for opinions. There are other contexts where that is entirely appropriate, but in this context questions are supposed to refer to ministerial responsibilities.


We have discussed the matters raised by Mr Roche with Ministers on several occasions. However, he has to take account of the fact that we now have legislation on the statute book that defines the position with regard to the measures that he mentioned. I am sure that he, like myself, would like to see sensible progress made on the issue as quickly as possible.


Does the First Minister acknowledge that the delay in establishing the Police Board is leading to a situation where the most vulnerable in society are under threat as a result of the hundreds of police officers currently leaving the force and not being replaced?


That relates to the answer that I gave earlier with regard to uncertainty having the consequence of undermining the effectiveness and morale of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, especially when we have these rashes of pipe bomb attacks, which I am sure that the Member deplores as much as I do.

Northern Ireland Executive: Brussels Office

3. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to outline progress made in establishing the Northern Ireland Executive representation in Brussels.
(AQO846/00)


The role of the office is primarily to service the needs of the Executive. To that end, it is planned that the head of office will take up post in March 2001. His or her deputy will be recruited shortly afterwards. Staff will be based in accommodation provided by the UK permanent representation until the work of fitting out the office has been completed, probably in May. A wide range of consultations have taken place to ensure that the facilities provided by the office meet the needs of the Executive.


I am delighted to hear that the timescale for getting the office in place is so short. What arrangements will there be to ensure that the needs of the Assembly and its Members in representing their constituents will be fully met by the new office? Will we have access to the advice and support of the new officers in representing our views in the European Union?


The office’s role is to service the needs of the Executive in respect of developing and implementing EU strategy. That is likely to involve direct relations between the office and the 11 Departments, and it will entail detailed input into particular policy areas. I can assure Mr Fee that the office will also play a role in promoting Northern Ireland’s wider interests in the EU, and, as part of that role, it will seek to assist Assembly Members in carrying out their responsibilities.
The hon Member will agree that recognising our part in Europe is important. When the First Minister and I recently met President Chirac and the Minister for European Affairs, Monsieur Moscovici, they did not focus on French issues; they focused on European issues and our role in Europe. We have much to offer other regions in Europe, especially those experiencing ethnic conflict. Therefore, it is important that we encourage all public representatives to engage in the wider issues of Europe, and I have no doubt that the office, when it is fully opened and staffed, will be able to assist all Assembly Members in fulfilling that important role.


Brussels is one of the main tourist centres in Europe. Where will this new office be located? Will it be in a back street behind the European Commission premises and inaccessible to the public, or will it be in the centre of Brussels, where hundreds of thousands of tourists can see Ulster in the wider European scene, as the Deputy First Minister has suggested?


The Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister has been assured that it will be located in a prime site at the heart of the administrative centre in Brussels and that it will be accessible to everybody. We will take every opportunity in the opening and running of it to ensure access for Assembly Members and other organisations that wish to promote the interests of Northern Irish people. That will be successfully achieved if Members work collectively.

Republican Terrorists

4. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail any discussion with the Government of the Republic of Ireland regarding the activities of Republican terrorists.
(AQO868/00)


The Deputy First Minister and I have not jointly discussed that matter with the Government of the Republic of Ireland, but our respective parties have met members of the Irish Government and their officials to discuss the issue, just as we have discussed the issue with our Government.


Does the First Minister agree that for as long as the IRA refuses to decommission, its dumps in the Republic of Ireland will not be secure? Will he undertake to impress upon Mr Ahern the need to apply rigour in tracking down any terrorist still at large in the Republic of Ireland, especially the Omagh bombers? Perhaps the leader of Fianna Fáil should learn from the ruthlessness that some of his predecessors applied to Republican dissidents.


There is evidence that some material from mainstream IRA dumps has found its way to dissidents and has been used in recent incidents — including, possibly, the Omagh bomb. The first part of the Member’s question makes that important point. There is a serious risk to the public so long as those dumps are not secured and for as long as dissident Republicans or any other dissident paramilitary groups are operating.
The Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister has impressed upon the Irish Prime Minister the importance of that matter, and he has assured us of the steps he is taking. We would love to see the issue dealt with speedily and simply if possible; it is extremely important.


Before the First Minister takes the second step of approaching the Irish Government, he should take the first step of approaching his own Government. Will he inform the House of what steps he has taken to challenge those people in his own Government who are clearly linked to a terrorist organisation? What steps has he taken to put in place worthwhile sanctions that will prevent those people from using the ballot box in one hand and the Armalite in the other to progress their Republican agenda? What worthwhile sanctions will he now put in place?


If the Member had been listening carefully to my answer he would realise that I made reference to the discussions we had with our own Government on this issue — our own Government being Her Majesty’s Government. The issue of this Administration is a matter of a completely different order entirely. The Member should not get those matters confused.


Have the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister made any representations to the Irish Government or the British Government about the recent spate of pipe bombings across NorthernIreland?


The Member raises a very important issue, and I am sure he is very much aware of it due to the problems that have occurred in his own constituency.
In the first five or six weeks of the year, there have been no fewer than 41pipe bomb attacks. This is a very serious matter, which I have raised with the appropriate authorities, and I am sure that the Deputy First Minister has raised it also. We are glad that the RUC has had some success. I commend MrO’Connor for the work he has done in his own constituency and, in particular, for the way in which he has encouraged the RUC and supported it in its work in Larne.

Victims’ Commission

5. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister whether they have had any discussions with the Minister of State regarding the establishment of a victims’ commission.
(AQO854/00)


The Junior Ministers, MrHaughey and MrNesbitt, who have responsibility for victims’ issues in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, regularly meet with their NorthernIreland Office counterpart, MrIngram, to discuss a range of matters relating to victims. Their next meeting is scheduled to take place before the end of this month, and a victims’ commissioner or ombudsman is among the matters to be discussed. It is an idea which needs to be considered carefully and evaluated before any firm proposals are brought forward.


Will the Deputy First Minister give his backing to the suggestion made in the House of Commons on 23January by JeffreyDonaldson, theMP for Lagan Valley, that the victims’ liaison unit be expanded to become a victims’ commission, with an increased remit and greater resources to focus specifically on providing funding and support for the victims of terrorist violence? Does the Deputy First Minister accept that, even in recent months, those who have suffered at the hands of terrorists have not been adequately or speedily supported by the system?


As Mr Beggs will know, the victims’ liaison unit is part of the Northen Ireland Office. The devolved Administration has no role, therefore, in determining its operational remit. As outlined in the answer to the original question, the issue of a victims’ commission or ombudsman needs to be considered carefully and evaluated by the NorthernIreland Office and the Administration before any firm proposal can be brought forward.
With regard to his second point, I refer Mr Beggs to what I said in response to DrPaisley’s question. The issue of victims needs to be considered carefully — not just examined — and decided upon in such a way that the individual and the groupings have the resources to give the full support needed.


Is the Deputy First Minister aware that in some people’s minds, not least in the minds of some Members of the House, there is confusion about the delineation of victims’ responsibilities between the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister and the NorthernIreland Office. Will he clear up the confusion by stating who has responsibility for what?


I thank the Member for his pertinent question. There is confusion in many minds at times. In broad terms, the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister is responsible for all devolved matters, and the Northern Ireland Office is responsible for reserved and excepted matters.
We appreciate that it is confusing for those on the ground. For that reason, an information leaflet was sent at the end of January to victims’ groups, individual victims and the victims’ spokespersons of political parties. The leaflet set out the responsibilities of the respective units and each of the Northern Ireland Departments. That exercise received positive feedback from a variety of groups and will be built upon by the continuation of a rolling programme of visits to victims’ groups by the victims unit. I agree with Members’ general feeling that we need to be in a position where there is much more clarity in relation to this issue. I believe that the will is there to see if we can bring that clarity to it.


What are the views of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister on this morning’s announcement that a private civil action is being taken to try to bring the Omagh bombers to book? That group of victims — and I think that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister would have to agree —received assurances at the time that the perpetrators of that heinous action would be brought to book. The draconian measures promised in the respective parliaments have proved ineffective. A £1million effort has been launched this morning. Will the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister consider helping the victims of Omagh? Where legal authority has failed, can they assist with civil action?


I was among those who stood in Omagh that night, and I will never forget the devastation and the effect. I have no hesitation in stating my sympathy with those who were killed or bereaved and for the entire community of Omagh, which has coped in a remarkably efficient and effective way.
The First Minister and I have been to Omagh on several occasions since, and we will be there again to help with the various projects in which we have been invited to take part. I note the question posed by Mr Gibson. We will take, as we will have to do, legal advice in relation to the matter, and we will continue to do what we can, as individuals and in our ministerial roles, to help people who have been bereaved and families that have been devastated so terribly.

Civil Service: Statutory Functions

6. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to outline on whose authority permanent secretaries have been seeking to establish conventions by which the Civil Service will work with the Executive Committee and the Assembly in respect of statutory functions.
(AQO847/00)


Permanent secretaries have sought guidance from the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister on the departmental Committee interface. The head of the Civil Service has since been engaged in informal exchanges with the objective of improving the working relationship between Departments and the Assembly.


Go raibh maith agat. Do the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister agree that the sentiments expressed in the memo distributed by Mr Ronnie Spence on 12 January are totally unacceptable insofar as he says that while Committees in the Assembly may have legal rights, they are poking their noses in where they should not? That sentiment is unacceptable. Do the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister acknowledge that the seeking of guidance by the permanent secretaries and the head of the Civil Service was only sparked by the leaking of that memo and the public controversy surrounding that?


I understand the point that the Member makes, and if permanent secretaries were attempting to limit the statutory position or proper role of Committees in any way, that would, of course, be quite wrong. However, the situation evolved in a slightly different way. The consultations to which I refer came before and not after the memo in question. There is no intention, in any way, to limit the proper role of the Committees. The Committees are mentioned in the agreement itself, where we agreed that Committees will have a scrutiny, policy development and consultation role with respect to the Department with which each is associated. That provision in the agreement is embodied in the legislation and, in particular, in the power of the Committees to send for papers.
That legal power is accepted by permanent secretaries. How it is to be exercised to enable the relationship involving the Assembly, the Committees and the Departments to run smoothly is a matter of detail to be looked at. I refer the Member to the protocols which have been developed in Wales and Scotland to spell out that relationship in more detail. It is not a matter of undermining the Committees — that would be quite wrong — but of trying to ensure a smooth and harmonious relationship. Any impression given by the memorandum that the objective was otherwise is misleading.


The First Minister referred to Scotland and Wales. Is he aware that conventions have been agreed in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly? Given that this problem first arose in a Government Department run by a DUP Minister who refuses to sit down with his Executive colleagues, does the First Minister agree that there is a need to agree conventions so that the Assembly can function properly and all relevant information can be made readily available?


The Member has made the important point that officials, including permanent secretaries, operate under the direction of their Minister. One assumes that the permanent secretary was acting in that way when he penned the memorandum, but that is another matter.
The main point that the Member made was in relation to the position in Wales and Scotland. He is quite right — protocols have been developed and published in Wales and Scotland on such matters. Members who are interested will find them stimulating. That will be quite educative.


I welcome the First Minister’s comments regarding the role of the Committees as defined in the Belfast Agreement, especially the section on policy development. Does he agree that, notwithstanding what is in the agreement, the natural inclination of Ministers, and particularly of their officials, is to sideline the views of Committees as far as possible?


It was clearly in the minds of those who negotiated the agreement — and in the minds of those who then translated it into legislation — that the Committees of the Assembly should have an important status that would go beyond that of a Westminster Select Committee. In referring to policy development, the Member has put his finger directly on that point.
It is fair to say that most Ministers try to work closely with the Committees when discussing and developing policies. We commend that approach because it limits any scope that there might be for friction in the relationship. But there is a difference in viewpoints between the Minister and Committee members, so we should not be surprised if different opinions occur from time to time. As with so many other things, we have to work through this rather unusual arrangement because the position of our Committees differs from that of the Westminster Committees. We have to work through that and, in doing so, developing our own protocols and precedents on how we proceed could be a useful exercise.

Charter Marks (Government Agencies and Departments)

7. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the award of Charter Marks to Government agencies and Departments.
(AQO862/00)


The Charter Mark scheme is open to all public-sector organisations that deal directly with the public. Overall, we have 169 holders of the award in Northern Ireland. Of these, 30 are in Government Departments, and 19 in agencies. We are pleased with Northern Ireland’s success in obtaining Charter Marks. All the latest winners, including 50 from local organisations, were in London last week to receive their awards. Junior Minister, Mr Nesbitt attended the ceremony to show our support. Winning a Charter Mark award is a great achievement, and it is outward recognition for providing an excellent service to the public.


Does the Deputy First Minister agree that the Charter Mark system has become rather meaningless in certain instances, given the failure of some Departments to be efficient and the fact that in some cases they cost taxpayers millions of pounds?


The cost is currently defrayed by the Cabinet Office, although it now places a charge on various types of firm. The charges are £500 for firms with up to 50 employees and £600 for others. We cannot measure the value of the award in monetary terms alone; it is a mark of efficiency and effectiveness that all Departments and agencies should aim to achieve. I congratulate all those sectors of our organisation in Northern Ireland and other organisations that have done so.

Culture, Arts and Leisure
New Deal for Sport

1. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to give his assessment of the implications for sport in Northern Ireland of the recently announced programme, New Deal for Sport; and to make a statement.
(AQO849/00)


The New Deal for Sport is a recently launched partnership initiative between the Department for Education and Employment and the Department of Culture, Media and Sport. The initiative aims to provide assistance to staff delivering physical education and sport in schools by extending the New Deal programme. The initiative, which is being taken forward on a pilot basis, will create a role for sports assistants working alongside existing school sport co-ordinators. It applies only to England at this stage. As Minister with responsibility for sport, I will monitor developments closely to see whether there are potential benefits for Northern Ireland.
(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClelland] in the Chair)


Does the Minister agree that implementing the New Deal for Sport — or a similar scheme — in Northern Ireland would bring many benefits? Does he also agree that there is a need to increase sporting activity among all age groups and that such activity can bring people many social and health benefits?


I am keen to see the introduction of any initiative that has the potential to improve the methods of delivering sport to the young and offering potential employment opportunities. However, it is important to note that it is a pilot scheme. We must wait and see whether it offers any opportunities. If so, we will need to decide how they could be introduced in Northern Ireland. I agree with the thrust of the Member’s question; there are huge benefits to be gained by increasing participation in sport.


I congratulate the Minister on setting up the task force to investigate soccer in Northern Ireland, and I look forward to seeing its conclusions. Does the Minister agree that there should be special emphasis on schools, with particular regard to providing funding to allow children to take part in all sports in an integrated manner?


Participation is a key issue, and we seek to promote it. The Youth Sport programme, run by the Sports Council, is a Province-wide initiative that aims to develop links between local schools —primary and post-primary — to ensure that there is equality of after-school sporting opportunities for all young people. The pupils involved are eight to 16-year-olds. The scheme is inclusive and raises participation rates.

Irish Language

2. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to detail the steps he is taking to remove restrictions on the development of the Irish language.
(AQO848/00)


I take seriously my responsibilities under the Belfast Agreement with regard to languages. There has been considerable progress since the agreement was signed. Funding for the all-Ireland Irish language agency, Foras na Gaeilge, has increased. Its total budget for this year is £7·2 million, of which my Department will provide £1·8 million. That will increase next year to £10·1 million, of which my Department will provide £2·53 million, representing an increase of 40% on the funding allocated for 2000-01.


I thank the Minister for his answer, although, with respect, I do not think that it addresses the specific question. Recent comments made by the Department for Regional Development indicated that there are legal restrictions on the use of the Irish language, for example, in public signage. Has the Minister considered the matter with a view to identifying such legal restrictions? If so, what must be done to remove them?


Directional signs are the responsibility of the Department for Regional Development, and MrMaskey must thus ask that Department and its Minister to identify the restrictions — if there are any. Street names are a matter for district councils.


I thank the Minister for his comments, but the original query was on the steps he had taken to remove those restrictions. Could the Minister look specifically at what is happening in the Newry and Mourne district? Townland and place names can be bilingual there. Names of buildings, such as the Ardmore RUC station, can be signed in more than one language. The Minister’s Department and others are involved in the promotion of the Slieve Gullion area of outstanding natural beauty. Where is the sense in investing in so many different facilities if the Department for Regional Development’s Roads Service will not allow the indigenous names of places or any semblance of the Irish language to be used?


The Council of Europe’s European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages is being ratified by the United Kingdom, which includes Northern Ireland. The Irish language is covered by PartIII of that charter. One of the Department’s initiatives is an interdepartmental group to co-ordinate action plans for implementing PartIII in respect of Irish. Each Department will have its own action plan. How we proceed with that initiative, and what steps will be taken, are matters for discussion. We will take it one step at a time.
As far as signage is concerned in the Member’s area, I repeat the answer I gave MrMaskey. Directional signs are a matter for the Department for Regional Development, and his question should properly be directed to that Department. Questions regarding street names and so on are matters for local authorities. Whether building signs are bilingual — or trilingual, as might be more appropriate under the agreement in many Northern Ireland areas — is a matter for the owners and the people who operate the buildings concerned.


The Minister will be aware that, during the nineteenth century, Irish was rescued largely by those from a Presbyterian background. Can he assure me that when he is dealing with the Council of Europe’s charter, the same effort will be put into Ulster Scots as is currently put into Irish?


I can give an absolute assurance that equity of treatment is the cornerstone of the Department’s approach to language. Ulster Scots is recognised by PartII of the Council of Europe’s charter. However, Ulster Scots and Irish are at different stages of development, but Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch is confident that its language will achieve PartIII status in 10years. That is an ambitious target, but it is serious. I must point out that, since devolution, funding for Ulster Scots has increased tenfold.

Battle of Moira (637 AD)

3. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to outline whether he has any plans to commemorate the Battle of Moira (637 AD).
(AQO858/00)


My Department has no plans to commemorate the Battle of Moira. That represented the final and disastrous attempt of the Ulaid King Congal Cáech to challenge the growing supremacy Uí Néill dynasties of the midlands and the north-west. The battle was fought on 24June 637 AD, not far from Moira village. This year marks its one thousand three hundred and sixty-fourth anniversary and is of no particular significance.


The Battle of Moira was one of the most significant battles in early Irish history. It was significant in three respects: politically, ecclesiastically and culturally. It was significant politically because, following the battle, the old links with Scotland were broken. In fact, you might say that the first union was dissolved. It was significant ecclesiastically because, following the battle, the cult of Patrick —


Dr Adamson, can you get to your question, please?


I must reply. The cult of Patrick moved from Connor in Antrim, where it was formed, to Armagh, which became the ecclesiastical centre of Ireland. Culturally, it engendered a series of sagas, some of which are still —


I am sorry, Dr Adamson. Unless you come to your question, I am going to rule you out of order.


Some are still prevalent today, especially Seamus Heaney’s great work ‘Sweeney Astray’. The Minister must agree that he would be contributing to cultural education if his Department recognised events such as the Battle of Moira as historic, rather than historical. Would it not help the development of a shared sense of identity for future generations in Northern Ireland if we paid more attention to those events which have not been trademarked by mural painters? That could perhaps be brought about through the Columba Initiative.


I replied originally that I thought that the Battle of Moira had no particular significance. I now stand corrected by the remarks that Dr Adamson has just made. I am aware that it is one of many battles fought over the centuries between the Uí Néill and the Ulaid. I also recognise that it has a significance. What I have ascertained actually came from a book that Dr Adamson edited. The historic significance of a battle in 637 AD needs to be better represented and explained before we begin to commemorate it. It is clearly something that Dr Adamson feels strongly about. There are obviously resonances, both within the Chamber and without.


Taking account of what Dr Adamson has just said about the significance of the historic battle, will the Minister, in the interests of efficiency, consider setting up a committee of one — namely, Dr Adamson — to make preparations for the commemoration of the battle? Will he further require him to report 12 months before the date of that commemoration and to make his report in the language in common use at that time?


I realise that that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. It is important to recognise that some 10 years ago Dr Adamson was instrumental in having an interpretative panel commemorating this battle unveiled inside the Moira demesne. Unfortunately, the panel was vandalised and has not been replaced. Lisburn Borough Council may have a role in replacing it. I would not begin to suggest that Mr Doherty was the one who vandalised it.

Allocation of Funds: Equality-Proofing

4. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to detail how he intends to ensure that all funding provided through his Department is equality-proofed.
(AQO835/00)


For the most part, funding from my Department is distributed through its non-departmental public bodies and the North/South Language Body. They are all public authorities by virtue of section 75(3)(b) and (c) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and are required to produce equality schemes. Such schemes detail the policies, including funding policies, which will be subject to equality impact assessment. My Department’s funding will be equality-proofed in that way. In my routine review of the performance of non-departmental public bodies, I will monitor their progress on commitments in their equality schemes.


I thank the Minister for his answer. Perhaps he can answer a few further questions. Can he inform me how sport for the disabled is resourced? What percentage of the Exchequer and lottery sports funding has been allocated specifically to funding sports for the disabled? Moreover, can the Minister tell the House what the Sports Council for Northern Ireland is doing to promote the participation in sport of people with disabilities?


I regret that I cannot indicate specific amounts, but I will certainly write to MsLewsley with information about Sports Council funding and on the other matters about which she asked questions. I gave the information in response to a similar question in the past, either in written or in oral form. However, I will certainly update those facts if required.
The Department and the Sports Council take their responsibilities seriously with regard to equality. Their individual equality schemes will bear testimony to that by ensuring that everyone is treated equally. Participation and access will be key themes in the Department’s approach to sport, not least with regard to those suffering a disability.


Almost all Culture, Arts and Leisure funding is distributed via the bureaucracy of "quangoland". However, does the Minister not accept that equality might be better safeguarded if funding were provided by more direct means, such as through local government? Will he undertake to ensure that the matter is considered as part of the review of public administration?


All parties agree that a review of public administration is required. Clearly, when that review takes place, all bodies, such as the Sports Council and the Arts Council, which are in the remit of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, will be included. Those bodies are governed by equality schemes and programmes under the new targeting social need programme. Changes and improvements have taken place, and those will ensure that everyone is treated fairly. We are trying to ensure that no barriers to access, participation and involvement are put in place by the Administration or the public bodies for which it is responsible.

Athletics

5. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to detail his plans to promote athletics throughout Northern Ireland.
(AQO831/00)


The Sports Council for Northern Ireland is responsible for the promotion and development of sport in the Province. The council works closely with the Northern Ireland Athletics Federation, which is the governing body for athletics. Athletics has benefited recently through various National Lottery-funded talented athlete programmes, which are aimed at improving athletes’ performance levels and the quality of potential athletes. Lottery awards have also been allocated to capital projects, which will enhance sports development opportunities for future generations of athletes.
In addition, the proposed Sports Institute for Northern Ireland at the University of Ulster’s Jordanstown campus will offer specialised training facilities and top-of-the-range back-up services to enable those who are part of it to perform to their full potential.


Does the Minister agree that, although Northern Ireland has hosted and promoted several international events in recent years, that appears to have been to the detriment of grass-roots athletics in Northern Ireland, which appears to be in constant decline?


I am not sure that I agree that the sport is in constant decline. For example, the Sports Council recently made several awards under the various talented athlete programmes. I have not heard the Northern Ireland Athletics Federation say that it is in serious decline.
To an extent, all sports are in competition with each other in developing their participants. We in Northern Ireland often fail to recognise that there is great sporting activity here, and that includes athletics. It is wrong to ignore that fact or to fail to develop the talent. If MrHilditch has examples of where the sport could be improved, I will be happy to discuss them with the Northern Ireland Athletics Federation and the Sports Council.


Given that we wish to encourage more young people into sport, is the Minister in a position to indicate whether his Department will offer assistance to the Antrim athletics stadium, which is one of the Province’s better known stadiums and is much used by schools from a wide area?


I am aware of the problems surrounding the Antrim stadium. It is now about 20years old and requires investment — probably considerable expenditure. We have been in discussions with and sought clarification from the council on several issues. It is estimated that about £1·6million will be required to bring the Antrim Forum back up to standard. We are proceeding with the matter as best we can, and we will look at how we can manage to give support to Antrim Council to ensure that the venue is upgraded. It plays an important role in the sporting life of the Province. MrWilson is quite right — 60% of its use is by schools.


The Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee had a worthwhile presentation last week from a very athletic group called the Northern Ireland Karate-Do Wado-Kai. Has the Minister any plans to give more support, that financial or otherwise, to that very athletic sport?


I cannot be specific on that group, or that sport. The Sports Council is the intermediate funding body, which is responsible for encouraging and developing sport. The group should make an application to the Sports Council in the first instance. If it feels that it is being treated unfairly or is not being given due consideration, it is quite free, through MrMcCarthy or others, to come to the Department, and I will ensure that its case is considered. It is a matter of satisfying criteria for funding, and if it does that, funding will be forthcoming.

EU and IFI Funds (West Tyrone)

6. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to detail the criteria used by departmental agencies when distributing European Union funds and funding from the International Fund for Ireland to West Tyrone.
(AQO813/00)


I am not aware of any agencies under my authority that are at present responsible for distributing European funds or funds from the International Fund for Ireland anywhere in Northern Ireland.


I presume that the Lottery Board and the Sports Council are under the Minister’s aegis. Is he aware that the last allocation of funding by those bodies was of 49% to GAA sports and 4% to football? One is a cross-community activity, and the other is regarded as being exclusively Roman Catholic. Would the Minister care to comment?


I am not aware of the precise details. I can certainly investigate the matter and write to Mr Gibson about the balance of funding between football and GAA. It is, however, a matter of making an application. Applications which satisfy the criteria are successful, and those which do not, are not. If he has specific examples, I will be happy to investigate them for him.
I have heard this sort of thing said before, but any time when I have looked at the matter I have been unable to satisfy myself that there has been unfair treatment. We are anxious to ensure that this does not happen. Equity and fair treatment are the cornerstones of funding allocations through all bodies under the Departments of the Administration.


Will the Minister say whether his Department has any responsibility for the distribution of Peace II money and whether such money will be allocated to West Tyrone? Indeed, following the previous question, I ask whether the money will be shared more fairly than Lottery Fund money is.


With regard to the third part of that question, I attempted to deal with the suggestion that funding needs to be shared more fairly in my answer to MrGibson.
I will investigate that matter, and if we come up with something, I will communicate with MrHussey. The Department expects around £4million of Peace II funding over fiveyears to be spent on water-based tourism. As one would expect, funding will be allocated against set criteria. Bids that come forward from West Tyrone will determine its allocation; I cannot predict what will go to West Tyrone until bidding starts. Funding has not yet begun, so bids from West Tyrone are premature.

Cultural Traditions: Museum Exhibitions

7. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to outline the role of museums when mounting major exhibitions with respect to the depiction of cultural traditions.
(AQO825/00)


One of my key strategic objectives is to promote greater understanding and respect for cultural diversity. That includes promoting a greater understanding of and respect for the different cultural traditions in Northern Ireland. Both the National Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland (MAGNI) and local museums have an important part to play in the process. MAGNI is required by statute to promote awareness, appreciation and understanding of people’s culture and way of life with particular regard to the heritage of Northern Ireland. That approach is reflected, for example, in its current Icons of Identity exhibitions and its work to commemorate the Act of Union. It also plans, as it said in its vision statement, to tell the history of the people of Ireland with particular emphasis on the history and heritage of Northern Ireland.


Is the Minister satisfied that museums show due regard for the culture of most people in Northern Ireland, which is Ulster culture? Can he say whether any plans have been developed to commemorate the Act of Union with a suitable display or exhibition in one of our principal museums, such as the Ulster Museum?


To answer the first question, if any of us were satisfied, none of us would be in public life. There is always room for improvement, no matter what you look at. We will continue to do what we can to strengthen and to improve.
On the question of the Act of Union, an exhibition is currently under way. It will be displayed in the Ulster Museum at the Botanic Gardens in Belfast for a period of threemonths beginning in June.


I am quite sure that the question was referring to the Act of Union of 1801 between all of Ireland and Britain. However, perhaps I might refer to the actual question relating to museums and their role. Has the Minister got a date yet for the publication of the report into regional museums? Does he agree that the report has been long awaited and that it will have considerable significance in promoting cultural identity in Northern Ireland? Has he begun preparations for a funding stream to implement what we hope will be the enlightened recommendations of that report?


I assume that I missed or lost the first part of the question. Is the Member referring to the local museums and heritage review? The review steering group intends to present the report jointly to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Department of the Environment by the end of February. I have not seen it, but that will mark the end of the review, and the Departments will then consult and respond to the steering group’s recommendations, which will fall under several headings. The resource implications will be a part of that, and I have no doubt that MrONeill and the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee will have suggestions. I look forward to sharing the review with the Committee and to hearing its suggestions and considerations in due course.

TG4

8. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to give his assessment of the benefits of the wider availability of TG4 in Northern Ireland.
(AQO845/00)


Policy in respect of broadcasting is a reserved matter and is the responsibility of the UK Government’s Department for Culture, Media and Sport.
In the recently published communications White Paper ‘A New Future For Communications’ the UK Government said that it aimed to give effect to the commitments in the Belfast Agreement relating to the broadcasting of Irish-language programmes and to the support of film and television production in Northern Ireland.
The wider availability of TG4 in Northern Ireland allows more of the Irish-language community in Northern Ireland to watch Irish-medium programmes. It also increases awareness of the language generally and affords viewers the opportunity to learn the Irish language through the medium of television.


Go raibh maith agat. I appreciate that the complete provision of TG4 throughout Ireland, and other matters pertaining to broadcasting are, indeed, reserved matters. None the less, I seek a commitment from the Minister to lobby the Irish and British broadcasting authorities to ensure the complete availability of TG4. Yesterday they had excellent coverage of the game between Bellaghy and Crossmolina, but too few people who wanted to see it got to do so. I also ask the Minister to lobby the BBC to commission new programmes in Irish. Go raibh maith agat.


Minister, the time is up. Will you answer Mr McElduff’s question in writing?


I will.

Agriculture and Rural Development
Fishing Industry

1. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to detail if additional European Union funding will be available for the fishing industry; and to make a statement.
(AQO810/00)


8. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to outline the date when the bid for Fishing Industry Finance and Grants (Fisheries Guidance) Programme funding will be approved by the European Commission; and to make a statement.
(AQO817/00)


Under the Community Support Framework, the European Commission has approved 29 million euros for assistance to the Northern Irish fishing industry. However, details of how such funding is to be allocated between the different fisheries measures have still to be agreed by the Commission, as they are contained in the overall Northern Ireland Transitional I programme.
I am, therefore, not in a position to outline how the funding will be allocated. As the Member will appreciate, I cannot tell him exactly when the European Commission will approve the operational programme, but I am reasonably confident that approval should be forthcoming before the end of March.


There is much talk in the fishing industry about the assistance that could be offered, and the Minister mentioned the sum of 29 million euros. I understand from the fishing industry that there could be £20 million available. Will the Minister give us a breakdown of how the funding will be allocated? For instance, how much will go on decommissioning and how much on the promotion of the finished product? More importantly, will the Minister tell us the start date for the scheme? The fishermen and the fishing industry need the finance now. Will there be sufficient financial assistance to take on the task of maintaining the fishing industry?


I cannot give details of the scheme, for it has not yet been approved. It would be wrong of me to pre-empt what will, or will not, be approved. Similarly, I cannot give a start date until the approval is through. I hope to receive it by the end of March 2001 at the latest.
As to what can be done for the industry, I am obviously considering a decommissioning scheme. My officials are consulting with the industry about the possibility. I cannot give a breakdown as yet, for the reasons that I have mentioned, but we are having consultations about it, so that when we do — as I hope — get the go-ahead, we will be ready to move on it as soon as possible. Apart from that, I am taking all other possible measures. In relation to the specific questions that the Member has asked, those are the only answers I am able to give.


We all realise the difficulty that the Minister and her Department are in while they await definitive guidance from Europe. However, the Minister will have plans for the decommissioning of fishing vessels. Will she detail for us what sort of decommissioning she would like to see? What plans does she have for such a scheme?


The decommissioning scheme will be aimed at reducing capacity to help fishermen with the difficulty of balancing the conservation of stocks with the preservation of their livelihood. The scheme is with the European Commission for approval.
In anticipation of the programme being approved in the next few weeks, I am developing the details of the decommissioning scheme and consulting with the fishing industry. However, I am not yet able to provide those details.


Since funding for the fishing industry comes from the common fisheries policy, which has failed the fishermen of County Down and is now under review, will the Minister say whether the Department has made any representations in relation to the review of the common fisheries policy?
Secondly, does she support the idea of regionalisation? Thirdly, as funding from the common fisheries policy is partly expended by the Northern Ireland Harbour Fisheries Authority, is the Minister aware of the growing concern among Portavogie fishermen about delays and decisions made by the board of that organisation, and will she make representations to ensure more speedy and efficient decision-making processes for that board?


In relation to the common fisheries policy, I expect to see a Green Paper in March, and we will be making our contribution to that through the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I have already had informal discussions with European officials, and I am aware that a review of the common fisheries policy is being prepared. The Northern Ireland Harbour Fishery Authority is no longer in deficit because of the hard work of board members.
The board is considering several issues, and the Member may be referring to the improvements to Kilkeel harbour. The board is examining the situation and is considering the wider implications of an integrated plan for the entire Kilkeel area. To date, they have not requested any funding from me, but they have been working well within their difficult remit.

Grant Applications: Appeals

2. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to outline progress towards the establishment of an appeals mechanism in respect of grant applications to her Department.
(AQO864/00)


My Department will shortly issue a consultation paper to the industry as the first step towards establishing an independent appeals mechanism for decisions concerning livestock and area-based payments. I hope that, following consultation, we will be able to proceed with setting up the structures required to have the new appeals procedure operational before the end of the year.


I am glad that the new procedure should be in place by the end of the year because on 5 December 2000, in response to the question from David Ford, the Minister said:
"We have a draft in preparation".
Scotland already has an ombudsman, and Wales will commence consultation in the autumn. When will we see progress here? May we have a timetable for that?


I am aware that the Scots have already got their appeals mechanism in place and that England and Wales have begun the consultation process. We hope to start consulting in the next few weeks, and that is a statutory obligation. Following consultation, we will assess the results and go through the Nolan procedures to establish the independent mechanism.
It is difficult to put a timetable on that work. I will be moving as quickly as possible because I recognise the importance — especially under the Human Rights Act 1998 — of having an independent mechanism so that people can feel that they have the option to bring an appeal for independent assessment outside the authority that made the decision.

Importation of Condemned Specified Risk Material

3. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development if she is aware of the import of condemned specified risk material (SRM) from the rendering plant in County Cavan.
(AQO870/00)


I was aware that imports of SRM were taking place. However, it was derived from animals slaughtered for human consumption, and none was derived from condemned animals. Processed SRM from Monery By-Products — now called Monery 2000 Ltd — in County Cavan was exported from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland for landfill at the Tullyvar site at Aughnacloy. The imports were under licence from my Department and took place from July1999 until December2000.
New European Union rules on SRM were introduced by the European Commission on 29June2000 through Commission decision 2000/418. That decision, which came into force on 1October2000, made it illegal to export SRM to another member state, except for the purposes of incineration. As the Republic of Ireland authorities lacked the necessary landfill facilities to deal with the material, they requested that the trade continue beyond 1October 2000 while they sought a derogation from the Commission. That approach was unsuccessful, and the Republic of Ireland authorities immediately stopped the trade in December2000. No further trade has occurred since.


Did the import practice stop in accordance with EU regulations that prohibit the transfer of such material? In complying with the regulation, has the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development admitted that the material was SRM? Can the Minister confirm that Monery 2000 Ltd is a designated plant for SRM? Was one day’s notice given to allow a veterinary inspection to be carried out every time consignments for Aughnacloy were dispatched? Can the Minister be satisfied with the integrity of licences for such material, given that MrFox from the Irish Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development found himself in prison for falsifying licences?


There are six or seven questions, and I may not have heard them all correctly, but I will do my best to answer. If I miss one, I will respond in writing.
First, the imported material is buried at Tullyvar, and it will remained buried. It was processed to the required EU standard before burial. The processing reduced any risk from BSE to negligible proportions. Prior to import, the SRM was processed to standards laid down by the Commission — decision 96/449/EC, which requires the material to be heated to a core temperature of 133°C for 20minutes at a pressure of 3 bar. The particle size of the raw material prior to processing must be reduced to at most 50mm by means of a pre-breaker or grinder.
I further reassure the Member that imports were subject to strict veterinary controls laid down in the licence granted by my Department. Those controls required processing before import to the required EU standard; advance notice of the import; veterinary certification by the Republic of Ireland authorities that the material had been processed to the required EU standard; transportation in sealed, leak-proof containers to arrive during working hours; and containers and vehicles to be cleansed and disinfected before leaving the Tullyvar landfill site. There were also veterinary checks of the consignments on their arrival at Tullyvar to ensure that those conditions had been met.


Specified risk material is being put into the landfill site at GreenhillRoad in County Antrim, and as much as 100,000 tonnes of meat and bonemeal — some of which may be contaminated — is being stored throughout Northern Ireland. Does the Minister agree that, with hindsight, SRM should never have been accepted from the South?


As regards SRM coming in from the South, we were not able, under the EU free-trade regulations, to refuse such material. That was the case until the EU changed the regulation and stipulated that such material should not be transported from one country to another. At that time the Republic of Ireland sought a derogation, and while that was taking place the practice was allowed to continue. However, as soon as the derogation was refused, the practice was stopped.
I cannot comment on the Member’s other question because I do not have the specific details here. I will answer him in writing.


It is difficult to get answers about what actually happened at the Tullyvar site. I welcome the interest shown by the DUP in trying to get an answer to questions that I have been raising for some considerable time.
The Minister mentioned that the material arrived in sealed containers. I would like an assurance that they were really sealed. Can we be assured that they were permanently sealed and that there is no risk of material from the dump at Tullyvar getting into the watercourse or being siphoned off into it as part of the procedures?
Can the Minister assure me that she will work with the Department of the Environment to ensure that no more dangerous materials are imported into Northern Ireland? Will she put pressure on the Republic of Ireland authorities to abide by their responsibilities in respect of trans-frontier transport of waste?


I remind the Member that the convention is to ask one question rather than a series.


There are so many issues. I will raise them in a written question.


I am sure the Minister will be quite happy to answer in writing.


I know that the Member has already raised those matters with me in writing.
As regards the risk to human health and SRM getting into the watercourse, the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee (SEAC) — an independent scientific advisory committee — has made it clear that the risk of BSE from buried SRM is negligible. That is the advice which we have received. Of course, any risk to human health would be a matter for the Food Standards Agency, not for my Department.
As regards whether the containers were sealed, the answer is yes. They were inspected on arrival. Veterinary checks were carried out, and everything was found to be in order.

Sheepmeat

4. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to say when she expects the European Commission to bring forward proposals for the review of the sheepmeat regime.
(AQO829/00)


I understand that the Commission aims to bring forward proposals for the reform of the sheepmeat regime for discussion at the next Agriculture Council meeting in March. Knowing this, we have been pressing the case from a UK and Northern Ireland point of view. Indeed, my officials attended a meeting with the Commission on 10 January to discuss the matter.
That proved useful, and the Commission was advised of the importance of the sheep premium to sheepmeat producers, and in particular of the less favoured areas supplement to hill farmers, who suffer from a lack of alternative agricultural activities. The Commission officials were also told that, while we were keen to see the regime simplified — and can see advantage in a move to a flat rate premium because it would introduce a degree of certainty into the regime for producers — any flat rate must be fair. We will be following developments closely.


The recent announcement regarding the regime seems to indicate that Brussels wants to replace variable premiums with fixed headage premiums. I do not know how we will be able to deal with that. However, does the Minister agree on the importance of a much higher flat rate than has been the case recently?


I am aware of the falling value of the sheep annual premium in recent years. That has been due partly to the strength of sterling, but also to the differential between the market values in the rest of Europe and the UK — and Northern Ireland in particular — which means that our subsidy is less. In fact, a flat rate has been suggested by the Scottish college that carried out a study on behalf of the Commission. The farmers and I would be happy to see a flat rate introduced, and it is a possibility. It would need to be set at a much higher rate, because recently the annual sheep premium has gradually decreased every year, and that is clearly unacceptable from our point of view.

Farm Incomes

5. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to give her assessment of farm incomes in Northern Ireland; and to make a statement.
(AQO827/00)


Income figures for Northern Ireland, which were published on 31January2001, show that, at the aggregate level, the total income from farming and the return to farmers and all their family members working on farms rose by 6% to £98million — 3% in real terms — in 2000.
At the individual farm level, it is forecast that the average net farm income will have increased by approximately £3,000 per farm in 2000-01, with improvements in all farm types other than cereals. In the cases of general cropping, in less favoured areas, cattle and sheep, pigs and poultry and mixed farms’ average incomes are expected to return to profit from loss. However, the average income from lowland cattle and sheep farms is expected to have remained negative, despite some improvement.
Although I welcome this improvement, however slight, incomes remain low by historical standards. The figures reflect the serious problems experienced by the agriculture industry in Northern Ireland in recent years. The weak euro has been the primary cause of the industry’s difficulties. The payment of agrimonetary compensation, worth almost £14million to Northern Ireland in 2000, has been an important element in bolstering incomes. While the increase in agriculture income is small, it represents a hopeful sign that the worst of the income difficulties may be over.


I thank the Minister for a detailed answer. I know that she understands better than most that there has been a serious decline in recent years across every agriculture sector, be it sheep, beef, dairy, poultry, cereals, or whatever. The news that the Minister gave is extremely welcome, but is it her Department’s assessment that the recession in agriculture has finally bottomed out, and what are its predictions for farm incomes over the next few years?


I agree with Mr Fee about the difficult times that the farming community has been through from an income point of view. I would like to think that they have bottomed out. However, much will depend on future movements in the sterling/euro exchange rate. There are now some grounds for mild optimism in the short to medium term. They include the recent strengthening of the euro and the generally improved prices currently prevailing for several commodities compared to those in the early part of last year. However, there has been another slight decrease in some prices in recent days.
Against that, the BSE problem in other EU countries has the potential to have a negative impact on beef prices in the British Isles. It will clearly have an effect on our market, and that is why I will argue for the payment of all agrimoney compensation while it is still available.


Does the Minister accept that, although there may have been a tiny increase in the total agriculture income last year, it has fallen by a massive 73% since 1995 — more than in England, Wales or Scotland? How much importance does the Minister attach to reversing the decline, and does she have any plans to achieve that?


I recognise that the rise comes against the backdrop of a steep fall in recent years. I also note that although our income level is slightly up, that is not the case in Great Britain. Indeed, Wales had a negative return in that it had a fall of 105%.
However, in relation to what I can do to address it, as I have already said, I will lobby for the full agrimonetary compensation to be paid. I am looking at every measure that we can take to improve marketing, skills and the quality of beef. There are issues beyond my control, such as the effect that the present BSE situation is having on the markets in continental Europe with the consequent domino effect in Northern Ireland. In that situation, I can only appeal to the good sense of consumers to exercise choice when buying and for retailers also to play their part.

Organic Farming

6. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to give her assessment of the differential rates of grant paid to organic farmers in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
(AQO866/00)


I am seeking to encourage the development of a vibrant organic sector in Northern Ireland. Under the Northern Ireland Rural Development Plan 2000-06, £9 million has been made available for a new organic farming scheme, which will be open to applicants from 1 March 2001. Those resources will enable the scheme to grow from its present level of 20 producers farming just over 1,000 hectares to 1,000 farmers with 30,000 hectares under agreement by 2006.
Payments to producers under the organic farming scheme will total, over a period of five years, £450 a hectare for land eligible for the arable area payment scheme (AAPS) and for land in permanent crops. Payments of £350 a hectare will be made for improved land not eligible for that scheme, with £50 a hectare for unimproved grassland or rough grazing land. Most of the payments will be made in the first two years, and producers will also receive lump sums of £300 in the first year, £200 in the second and £100 in the third year towards the initial costs of advice and training.
In the Republic of Ireland, under the rural environment protection scheme (REPS), organic farmers receive annual payments of 181 euros (approximately £110) a hectare for land in conversion and 91 euros (approximately £55) a hectare for land fully converted, up to a maximum of 40 hectares. The REPS agreement is for five years, but it can be renewed with payments for fully converted land continuing at the lower rate.
The need for ongoing payments to organic farmers is likely to emerge in the report on the strategic study of the organic sector, which is being completed. I will study any such recommendations carefully, though there is no financial provision for any such payments.


I thank the Minister for detailing what is currently paid, but she did not refer to the fact that the UK is the only country in the EU that does not make provision for ongoing payments under the organic aid scheme, or something similar. Does she accept that Northern Ireland producers have particular problems, given the land border with a member state that pays such an ongoing grant? Does she also accept that there is a real danger that farmers in Northern Ireland could convert to organic production because of the current level of grant and subsequently be undercut by producers elsewhere in Europe unless there is ongoing support?


A study of the organic farming scheme is currently taking place. I am willing consider the report that I will get from those consultants following their strategic study of the Northern Ireland organic sector. I am open-minded on the issue, and I await that study’s recommendations. I also have to bear in mind — and I remind Mr Ford of this — that resources will always be a problem, but I will do what I can to deal with the issue.


The Minister will now be aware of the seven-point plan brought forward by Mr Fischler for dealing with beef prices. It includes an exemption to use set-aside land for organic farming. Has she assessed the impact of that proposal with regard to her previous answers?
(Mr Deputy Speaker [Sir John Gorman] in the Chair)


I am aware of the seven proposals that have come from the Commission, and at present I am discussing those proposals with the industry. This morning I had a meeting with the Ulster Farmers’ Union. I will consider all the implications, but I have not assessed any one in particular. I am going to the agriculture meeting in Brussels next Monday, and it is to be hoped that I will be in a better position then to give a fuller answer to the question.

Quality Beef Scheme: Non-Genetically-Modified Feed

7. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to confirm that the difficulty in sourcing non-genetically-modified feed for farm animals may affect the implementation of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development quality beef scheme.
(AQO840/00)


I assume that the Member is referring to the farm quality assurance scheme, which is managed by the Livestock and Meat Commission for Northern Ireland on behalf of the industry. I understand that industry representatives are considering the potential under the scheme to provide some assurance that animals have not been fed genetically modified foods for some period prior to slaughter. This is a commercial matter for industry interests to consider and decide how they wish to proceed. I am advised by the Northern Ireland grain trade that it is possible to supply genetically-modified-free feed, but at an additional cost.

Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister

Victim Support: Finance Allocation

Mr Billy Armstrong: 1. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail allocation arrangements for the moneys announced for victim support.
(AQO824/00)

Mr Seamus Mallon: The Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister has made no allocation of money to Victim Support Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Office recently announced a support package of £1m for that organisation. Victim Support Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Office are responsible for the detailed arrangements concerning the use of that money.

Mr Billy Armstrong: Does the Deputy First Minister believe that the allocation of £6·67 million under Peace II funding to support victims is adequate in comparison with the cost to date of over £33·8 million for the Saville inquiry? Will the Deputy First Minister ensure that Peace II money reaches the real victims of terrorisism, and not the perpetrators of terrorism?

Mr Seamus Mallon: I am afraid that, with regard to this, the Assembly Member is comparing apples with pears. The reality is that no one in the devolved Administration has any responsibility for the Bloody Sunday tribunal. Our efforts should be directed to ensuring that money available for victims from Europe is used to the best effect.
In relation to the question of funding for victims’ groups, the devolved Administration is aware that the victims of violent action have been one of the most neglected sections in society over the past three decades. The Executive intend to ensure that, alongside other organisations operating in this field, victims’ groups have the capacity to access support and funding opportunities from Government, European and other sources.

Mr Alban Maginness: I welcome the Deputy First Minister’s comments about victims. They are an important element in society. One hopes that the Executive will continue to give them proper support.
With regard to Peace II, what provision for victims does the Deputy First Minister see in it? Indeed,what remains from Peace I for the support of victims?

Mr Seamus Mallon: The Peace II programme will contain a specific measure for victims with funding of approximately £6·67 million. The closing date for applications for funding under Peace I was 31 December 1999, and therefore no money remains in Peace I for victim support. However, money already allocated can be spent until 31 December 2001.

Rev Dr Ian Paisley: Will the Deputy First Minister keep the early victims of violence in mind? Only small amounts of money were paid out then. For instance, an Armagh woman whose husband was shot had five sons. They received £500 each, which was an insult. Will the Deputy First Minister keep that in mind, and can that be rectified now by paying suitable moneys to those victims?

Mr Seamus Mallon: This is an important question in the sense that everyone in the Chamber has, I suppose, been astounded in the past by the way that people and families who suffered bereavement of that type did not have access to the type of support that was required.
The Member touched upon the crucial point of how we can effectively cater for the individual victim, as opposed to victims’ groups. In relation to both those parts of the question, we in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will certainly try to ensure, first, that people who choose to remain outside victims’ groups are not forgotten and, secondly, that those in victims’ groups will have the capacity and financial resources to develop the type of support that they most need.

Police Board

Mr Duncan Dalton: 2. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail any discussions they have had with the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State regarding the establishment of the new Police Board.
(AQO855/00)

Rt Hon David Trimble: We have not jointly discussed that matter with the Prime Minister, the current Secretary of State or, indeed, his predecessor. However, our respective parties have, of course, met each of those named persons to discuss the issue.

Mr Duncan Dalton: Does the First Minister agree that the failure of the SDLP and Sinn Féin to offer their support to the Police Service is undermining confidence in the agreement? Is it not true that if the Ulster Unionist Party had taken the same attitude to the establishment of the Executive that those parties have taken to the Police Board, there would not even be an Assembly at the moment? Is it not a disgrace that at this difficult time, with pipe bomb attacks and parliamentary activity continuing, those who complain daily about the attacks have not got the decency or the moral courage to support the police now?

Rt Hon David Trimble: I understand the Member’s points, although I might have couched them in slightly different language. Everybody is anxious to see progress being made on the issue, especially for the last reason that the Member mentioned — namely, the violence that is occurring and, in particular, the unacceptable level of pipe bomb attacks by some Loyalist elements.
We congratulate the Royal Ulster Constabulary on the success that it has had against the pipe bombers, but I am concerned that the continuing uncertainty about policing arrangements will have the effect of undermining the effectiveness and morale of the RUC and limiting its ability to deal with that serious issue.

Mr Patrick Roche: Will the Minister confirm that he would be totally opposed to the introduction into legislation of any retrospective powers of investigation for this Police Board? Does he agree that it would be unthinkable for the representatives of fully armed terrorist organisations to be allowed to participate, through the board, in the policing of Northern Ireland?

Mr Speaker: Order. Before giving the Minister the opportunity to reply, I remind Members that questions to Ministers — and I refer not just to this question — are supposed to refer to the Ministers’ areas of responsibility. There is a tendency for Members to go outside that and ask for opinions. There are other contexts where that is entirely appropriate, but in this context questions are supposed to refer to ministerial responsibilities.

Rt Hon David Trimble: We have discussed the matters raised by Mr Roche with Ministers on several occasions. However, he has to take account of the fact that we now have legislation on the statute book that defines the position with regard to the measures that he mentioned. I am sure that he, like myself, would like to see sensible progress made on the issue as quickly as possible.

Mr Edwin Poots: Does the First Minister acknowledge that the delay in establishing the Police Board is leading to a situation where the most vulnerable in society are under threat as a result of the hundreds of police officers currently leaving the force and not being replaced?

Rt Hon David Trimble: That relates to the answer that I gave earlier with regard to uncertainty having the consequence of undermining the effectiveness and morale of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, especially when we have these rashes of pipe bomb attacks, which I am sure that the Member deplores as much as I do.

Northern Ireland Executive: Brussels Office

Mr John Fee: 3. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to outline progress made in establishing the Northern Ireland Executive representation in Brussels.
(AQO846/00)

Mr Seamus Mallon: The role of the office is primarily to service the needs of the Executive. To that end, it is planned that the head of office will take up post in March 2001. His or her deputy will be recruited shortly afterwards. Staff will be based in accommodation provided by the UK permanent representation until the work of fitting out the office has been completed, probably in May. A wide range of consultations have taken place to ensure that the facilities provided by the office meet the needs of the Executive.

Mr John Fee: I am delighted to hear that the timescale for getting the office in place is so short. What arrangements will there be to ensure that the needs of the Assembly and its Members in representing their constituents will be fully met by the new office? Will we have access to the advice and support of the new officers in representing our views in the European Union?

Mr Seamus Mallon: The office’s role is to service the needs of the Executive in respect of developing and implementing EU strategy. That is likely to involve direct relations between the office and the 11 Departments, and it will entail detailed input into particular policy areas. I can assure Mr Fee that the office will also play a role in promoting Northern Ireland’s wider interests in the EU, and, as part of that role, it will seek to assist Assembly Members in carrying out their responsibilities.
The hon Member will agree that recognising our part in Europe is important. When the First Minister and I recently met President Chirac and the Minister for European Affairs, Monsieur Moscovici, they did not focus on French issues; they focused on European issues and our role in Europe. We have much to offer other regions in Europe, especially those experiencing ethnic conflict. Therefore, it is important that we encourage all public representatives to engage in the wider issues of Europe, and I have no doubt that the office, when it is fully opened and staffed, will be able to assist all Assembly Members in fulfilling that important role.

John Taylor: Brussels is one of the main tourist centres in Europe. Where will this new office be located? Will it be in a back street behind the European Commission premises and inaccessible to the public, or will it be in the centre of Brussels, where hundreds of thousands of tourists can see Ulster in the wider European scene, as the Deputy First Minister has suggested?

Mr Seamus Mallon: The Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister has been assured that it will be located in a prime site at the heart of the administrative centre in Brussels and that it will be accessible to everybody. We will take every opportunity in the opening and running of it to ensure access for Assembly Members and other organisations that wish to promote the interests of Northern Irish people. That will be successfully achieved if Members work collectively.

Republican Terrorists

Dr Esmond Birnie: 4. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail any discussion with the Government of the Republic of Ireland regarding the activities of Republican terrorists.
(AQO868/00)

Rt Hon David Trimble: The Deputy First Minister and I have not jointly discussed that matter with the Government of the Republic of Ireland, but our respective parties have met members of the Irish Government and their officials to discuss the issue, just as we have discussed the issue with our Government.

Dr Esmond Birnie: Does the First Minister agree that for as long as the IRA refuses to decommission, its dumps in the Republic of Ireland will not be secure? Will he undertake to impress upon Mr Ahern the need to apply rigour in tracking down any terrorist still at large in the Republic of Ireland, especially the Omagh bombers? Perhaps the leader of Fianna Fáil should learn from the ruthlessness that some of his predecessors applied to Republican dissidents.

Rt Hon David Trimble: There is evidence that some material from mainstream IRA dumps has found its way to dissidents and has been used in recent incidents — including, possibly, the Omagh bomb. The first part of the Member’s question makes that important point. There is a serious risk to the public so long as those dumps are not secured and for as long as dissident Republicans or any other dissident paramilitary groups are operating.
The Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister has impressed upon the Irish Prime Minister the importance of that matter, and he has assured us of the steps he is taking. We would love to see the issue dealt with speedily and simply if possible; it is extremely important.

Mr Ian Paisley Jnr: Before the First Minister takes the second step of approaching the Irish Government, he should take the first step of approaching his own Government. Will he inform the House of what steps he has taken to challenge those people in his own Government who are clearly linked to a terrorist organisation? What steps has he taken to put in place worthwhile sanctions that will prevent those people from using the ballot box in one hand and the Armalite in the other to progress their Republican agenda? What worthwhile sanctions will he now put in place?

Rt Hon David Trimble: If the Member had been listening carefully to my answer he would realise that I made reference to the discussions we had with our own Government on this issue — our own Government being Her Majesty’s Government. The issue of this Administration is a matter of a completely different order entirely. The Member should not get those matters confused.

Mr Danny O'Connor: Have the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister made any representations to the Irish Government or the British Government about the recent spate of pipe bombings across NorthernIreland?

Rt Hon David Trimble: The Member raises a very important issue, and I am sure he is very much aware of it due to the problems that have occurred in his own constituency.
In the first five or six weeks of the year, there have been no fewer than 41pipe bomb attacks. This is a very serious matter, which I have raised with the appropriate authorities, and I am sure that the Deputy First Minister has raised it also. We are glad that the RUC has had some success. I commend MrO’Connor for the work he has done in his own constituency and, in particular, for the way in which he has encouraged the RUC and supported it in its work in Larne.

Victims’ Commission

Mr Roy Beggs: 5. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister whether they have had any discussions with the Minister of State regarding the establishment of a victims’ commission.
(AQO854/00)

Mr Seamus Mallon: The Junior Ministers, MrHaughey and MrNesbitt, who have responsibility for victims’ issues in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, regularly meet with their NorthernIreland Office counterpart, MrIngram, to discuss a range of matters relating to victims. Their next meeting is scheduled to take place before the end of this month, and a victims’ commissioner or ombudsman is among the matters to be discussed. It is an idea which needs to be considered carefully and evaluated before any firm proposals are brought forward.

Mr Roy Beggs: Will the Deputy First Minister give his backing to the suggestion made in the House of Commons on 23January by JeffreyDonaldson, theMP for Lagan Valley, that the victims’ liaison unit be expanded to become a victims’ commission, with an increased remit and greater resources to focus specifically on providing funding and support for the victims of terrorist violence? Does the Deputy First Minister accept that, even in recent months, those who have suffered at the hands of terrorists have not been adequately or speedily supported by the system?

Mr Seamus Mallon: As Mr Beggs will know, the victims’ liaison unit is part of the Northen Ireland Office. The devolved Administration has no role, therefore, in determining its operational remit. As outlined in the answer to the original question, the issue of a victims’ commission or ombudsman needs to be considered carefully and evaluated by the NorthernIreland Office and the Administration before any firm proposal can be brought forward.
With regard to his second point, I refer Mr Beggs to what I said in response to DrPaisley’s question. The issue of victims needs to be considered carefully — not just examined — and decided upon in such a way that the individual and the groupings have the resources to give the full support needed.

Mr Eamonn ONeill: Is the Deputy First Minister aware that in some people’s minds, not least in the minds of some Members of the House, there is confusion about the delineation of victims’ responsibilities between the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister and the NorthernIreland Office. Will he clear up the confusion by stating who has responsibility for what?

Mr Seamus Mallon: I thank the Member for his pertinent question. There is confusion in many minds at times. In broad terms, the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister is responsible for all devolved matters, and the Northern Ireland Office is responsible for reserved and excepted matters.
We appreciate that it is confusing for those on the ground. For that reason, an information leaflet was sent at the end of January to victims’ groups, individual victims and the victims’ spokespersons of political parties. The leaflet set out the responsibilities of the respective units and each of the Northern Ireland Departments. That exercise received positive feedback from a variety of groups and will be built upon by the continuation of a rolling programme of visits to victims’ groups by the victims unit. I agree with Members’ general feeling that we need to be in a position where there is much more clarity in relation to this issue. I believe that the will is there to see if we can bring that clarity to it.

Mr Oliver Gibson: What are the views of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister on this morning’s announcement that a private civil action is being taken to try to bring the Omagh bombers to book? That group of victims — and I think that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister would have to agree —received assurances at the time that the perpetrators of that heinous action would be brought to book. The draconian measures promised in the respective parliaments have proved ineffective. A £1million effort has been launched this morning. Will the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister consider helping the victims of Omagh? Where legal authority has failed, can they assist with civil action?

Mr Seamus Mallon: I was among those who stood in Omagh that night, and I will never forget the devastation and the effect. I have no hesitation in stating my sympathy with those who were killed or bereaved and for the entire community of Omagh, which has coped in a remarkably efficient and effective way.
The First Minister and I have been to Omagh on several occasions since, and we will be there again to help with the various projects in which we have been invited to take part. I note the question posed by Mr Gibson. We will take, as we will have to do, legal advice in relation to the matter, and we will continue to do what we can, as individuals and in our ministerial roles, to help people who have been bereaved and families that have been devastated so terribly.

Civil Service: Statutory Functions

Mr Alex Maskey: 6. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to outline on whose authority permanent secretaries have been seeking to establish conventions by which the Civil Service will work with the Executive Committee and the Assembly in respect of statutory functions.
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Rt Hon David Trimble: Permanent secretaries have sought guidance from the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister on the departmental Committee interface. The head of the Civil Service has since been engaged in informal exchanges with the objective of improving the working relationship between Departments and the Assembly.

Mr Alex Maskey: Go raibh maith agat. Do the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister agree that the sentiments expressed in the memo distributed by Mr Ronnie Spence on 12 January are totally unacceptable insofar as he says that while Committees in the Assembly may have legal rights, they are poking their noses in where they should not? That sentiment is unacceptable. Do the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister acknowledge that the seeking of guidance by the permanent secretaries and the head of the Civil Service was only sparked by the leaking of that memo and the public controversy surrounding that?

Rt Hon David Trimble: I understand the point that the Member makes, and if permanent secretaries were attempting to limit the statutory position or proper role of Committees in any way, that would, of course, be quite wrong. However, the situation evolved in a slightly different way. The consultations to which I refer came before and not after the memo in question. There is no intention, in any way, to limit the proper role of the Committees. The Committees are mentioned in the agreement itself, where we agreed that Committees will have a scrutiny, policy development and consultation role with respect to the Department with which each is associated. That provision in the agreement is embodied in the legislation and, in particular, in the power of the Committees to send for papers.
That legal power is accepted by permanent secretaries. How it is to be exercised to enable the relationship involving the Assembly, the Committees and the Departments to run smoothly is a matter of detail to be looked at. I refer the Member to the protocols which have been developed in Wales and Scotland to spell out that relationship in more detail. It is not a matter of undermining the Committees — that would be quite wrong — but of trying to ensure a smooth and harmonious relationship. Any impression given by the memorandum that the objective was otherwise is misleading.

Mr John Dallat: The First Minister referred to Scotland and Wales. Is he aware that conventions have been agreed in the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly? Given that this problem first arose in a Government Department run by a DUP Minister who refuses to sit down with his Executive colleagues, does the First Minister agree that there is a need to agree conventions so that the Assembly can function properly and all relevant information can be made readily available?

Rt Hon David Trimble: The Member has made the important point that officials, including permanent secretaries, operate under the direction of their Minister. One assumes that the permanent secretary was acting in that way when he penned the memorandum, but that is another matter.
The main point that the Member made was in relation to the position in Wales and Scotland. He is quite right — protocols have been developed and published in Wales and Scotland on such matters. Members who are interested will find them stimulating. That will be quite educative.

Mr James Leslie: I welcome the First Minister’s comments regarding the role of the Committees as defined in the Belfast Agreement, especially the section on policy development. Does he agree that, notwithstanding what is in the agreement, the natural inclination of Ministers, and particularly of their officials, is to sideline the views of Committees as far as possible?

Rt Hon David Trimble: It was clearly in the minds of those who negotiated the agreement — and in the minds of those who then translated it into legislation — that the Committees of the Assembly should have an important status that would go beyond that of a Westminster Select Committee. In referring to policy development, the Member has put his finger directly on that point.
It is fair to say that most Ministers try to work closely with the Committees when discussing and developing policies. We commend that approach because it limits any scope that there might be for friction in the relationship. But there is a difference in viewpoints between the Minister and Committee members, so we should not be surprised if different opinions occur from time to time. As with so many other things, we have to work through this rather unusual arrangement because the position of our Committees differs from that of the Westminster Committees. We have to work through that and, in doing so, developing our own protocols and precedents on how we proceed could be a useful exercise.

Charter Marks (Government Agencies and Departments)

Mr Kieran McCarthy: 7. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the award of Charter Marks to Government agencies and Departments.
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Mr Seamus Mallon: The Charter Mark scheme is open to all public-sector organisations that deal directly with the public. Overall, we have 169 holders of the award in Northern Ireland. Of these, 30 are in Government Departments, and 19 in agencies. We are pleased with Northern Ireland’s success in obtaining Charter Marks. All the latest winners, including 50 from local organisations, were in London last week to receive their awards. Junior Minister, Mr Nesbitt attended the ceremony to show our support. Winning a Charter Mark award is a great achievement, and it is outward recognition for providing an excellent service to the public.

Mr Kieran McCarthy: Does the Deputy First Minister agree that the Charter Mark system has become rather meaningless in certain instances, given the failure of some Departments to be efficient and the fact that in some cases they cost taxpayers millions of pounds?

Mr Seamus Mallon: The cost is currently defrayed by the Cabinet Office, although it now places a charge on various types of firm. The charges are £500 for firms with up to 50 employees and £600 for others. We cannot measure the value of the award in monetary terms alone; it is a mark of efficiency and effectiveness that all Departments and agencies should aim to achieve. I congratulate all those sectors of our organisation in Northern Ireland and other organisations that have done so.

Culture, Arts and Leisure

New Deal for Sport

Mr Roy Beggs: 1. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to give his assessment of the implications for sport in Northern Ireland of the recently announced programme, New Deal for Sport; and to make a statement.
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Mr Michael McGimpsey: The New Deal for Sport is a recently launched partnership initiative between the Department for Education and Employment and the Department of Culture, Media and Sport. The initiative aims to provide assistance to staff delivering physical education and sport in schools by extending the New Deal programme. The initiative, which is being taken forward on a pilot basis, will create a role for sports assistants working alongside existing school sport co-ordinators. It applies only to England at this stage. As Minister with responsibility for sport, I will monitor developments closely to see whether there are potential benefits for Northern Ireland.
(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClelland] in the Chair)

Mr Roy Beggs: Does the Minister agree that implementing the New Deal for Sport — or a similar scheme — in Northern Ireland would bring many benefits? Does he also agree that there is a need to increase sporting activity among all age groups and that such activity can bring people many social and health benefits?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I am keen to see the introduction of any initiative that has the potential to improve the methods of delivering sport to the young and offering potential employment opportunities. However, it is important to note that it is a pilot scheme. We must wait and see whether it offers any opportunities. If so, we will need to decide how they could be introduced in Northern Ireland. I agree with the thrust of the Member’s question; there are huge benefits to be gained by increasing participation in sport.

Mr Eugene McMenamin: I congratulate the Minister on setting up the task force to investigate soccer in Northern Ireland, and I look forward to seeing its conclusions. Does the Minister agree that there should be special emphasis on schools, with particular regard to providing funding to allow children to take part in all sports in an integrated manner?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: Participation is a key issue, and we seek to promote it. The Youth Sport programme, run by the Sports Council, is a Province-wide initiative that aims to develop links between local schools —primary and post-primary — to ensure that there is equality of after-school sporting opportunities for all young people. The pupils involved are eight to 16-year-olds. The scheme is inclusive and raises participation rates.

Irish Language

Mr Alex Maskey: 2. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to detail the steps he is taking to remove restrictions on the development of the Irish language.
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Mr Michael McGimpsey: I take seriously my responsibilities under the Belfast Agreement with regard to languages. There has been considerable progress since the agreement was signed. Funding for the all-Ireland Irish language agency, Foras na Gaeilge, has increased. Its total budget for this year is £7·2 million, of which my Department will provide £1·8 million. That will increase next year to £10·1 million, of which my Department will provide £2·53 million, representing an increase of 40% on the funding allocated for 2000-01.

Mr Alex Maskey: I thank the Minister for his answer, although, with respect, I do not think that it addresses the specific question. Recent comments made by the Department for Regional Development indicated that there are legal restrictions on the use of the Irish language, for example, in public signage. Has the Minister considered the matter with a view to identifying such legal restrictions? If so, what must be done to remove them?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: Directional signs are the responsibility of the Department for Regional Development, and MrMaskey must thus ask that Department and its Minister to identify the restrictions — if there are any. Street names are a matter for district councils.

Mr John Fee: I thank the Minister for his comments, but the original query was on the steps he had taken to remove those restrictions. Could the Minister look specifically at what is happening in the Newry and Mourne district? Townland and place names can be bilingual there. Names of buildings, such as the Ardmore RUC station, can be signed in more than one language. The Minister’s Department and others are involved in the promotion of the Slieve Gullion area of outstanding natural beauty. Where is the sense in investing in so many different facilities if the Department for Regional Development’s Roads Service will not allow the indigenous names of places or any semblance of the Irish language to be used?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: The Council of Europe’s European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages is being ratified by the United Kingdom, which includes Northern Ireland. The Irish language is covered by PartIII of that charter. One of the Department’s initiatives is an interdepartmental group to co-ordinate action plans for implementing PartIII in respect of Irish. Each Department will have its own action plan. How we proceed with that initiative, and what steps will be taken, are matters for discussion. We will take it one step at a time.
As far as signage is concerned in the Member’s area, I repeat the answer I gave MrMaskey. Directional signs are a matter for the Department for Regional Development, and his question should properly be directed to that Department. Questions regarding street names and so on are matters for local authorities. Whether building signs are bilingual — or trilingual, as might be more appropriate under the agreement in many Northern Ireland areas — is a matter for the owners and the people who operate the buildings concerned.

Mr Alan McFarland: The Minister will be aware that, during the nineteenth century, Irish was rescued largely by those from a Presbyterian background. Can he assure me that when he is dealing with the Council of Europe’s charter, the same effort will be put into Ulster Scots as is currently put into Irish?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I can give an absolute assurance that equity of treatment is the cornerstone of the Department’s approach to language. Ulster Scots is recognised by PartII of the Council of Europe’s charter. However, Ulster Scots and Irish are at different stages of development, but Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch is confident that its language will achieve PartIII status in 10years. That is an ambitious target, but it is serious. I must point out that, since devolution, funding for Ulster Scots has increased tenfold.

Battle of Moira (637 AD)

Dr Ian Adamson: 3. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to outline whether he has any plans to commemorate the Battle of Moira (637 AD).
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Mr Michael McGimpsey: My Department has no plans to commemorate the Battle of Moira. That represented the final and disastrous attempt of the Ulaid King Congal Cáech to challenge the growing supremacy Uí Néill dynasties of the midlands and the north-west. The battle was fought on 24June 637 AD, not far from Moira village. This year marks its one thousand three hundred and sixty-fourth anniversary and is of no particular significance.

Dr Ian Adamson: The Battle of Moira was one of the most significant battles in early Irish history. It was significant in three respects: politically, ecclesiastically and culturally. It was significant politically because, following the battle, the old links with Scotland were broken. In fact, you might say that the first union was dissolved. It was significant ecclesiastically because, following the battle, the cult of Patrick —

Mr Donovan McClelland: Dr Adamson, can you get to your question, please?

Dr Ian Adamson: I must reply. The cult of Patrick moved from Connor in Antrim, where it was formed, to Armagh, which became the ecclesiastical centre of Ireland. Culturally, it engendered a series of sagas, some of which are still —

Mr Donovan McClelland: I am sorry, Dr Adamson. Unless you come to your question, I am going to rule you out of order.

Dr Ian Adamson: Some are still prevalent today, especially Seamus Heaney’s great work ‘Sweeney Astray’. The Minister must agree that he would be contributing to cultural education if his Department recognised events such as the Battle of Moira as historic, rather than historical. Would it not help the development of a shared sense of identity for future generations in Northern Ireland if we paid more attention to those events which have not been trademarked by mural painters? That could perhaps be brought about through the Columba Initiative.

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I replied originally that I thought that the Battle of Moira had no particular significance. I now stand corrected by the remarks that Dr Adamson has just made. I am aware that it is one of many battles fought over the centuries between the Uí Néill and the Ulaid. I also recognise that it has a significance. What I have ascertained actually came from a book that Dr Adamson edited. The historic significance of a battle in 637 AD needs to be better represented and explained before we begin to commemorate it. It is clearly something that Dr Adamson feels strongly about. There are obviously resonances, both within the Chamber and without.

Mr Arthur Doherty: Taking account of what Dr Adamson has just said about the significance of the historic battle, will the Minister, in the interests of efficiency, consider setting up a committee of one — namely, Dr Adamson — to make preparations for the commemoration of the battle? Will he further require him to report 12 months before the date of that commemoration and to make his report in the language in common use at that time?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I realise that that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. It is important to recognise that some 10 years ago Dr Adamson was instrumental in having an interpretative panel commemorating this battle unveiled inside the Moira demesne. Unfortunately, the panel was vandalised and has not been replaced. Lisburn Borough Council may have a role in replacing it. I would not begin to suggest that Mr Doherty was the one who vandalised it.

Allocation of Funds: Equality-Proofing

Ms Patricia Lewsley: 4. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to detail how he intends to ensure that all funding provided through his Department is equality-proofed.
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Mr Michael McGimpsey: For the most part, funding from my Department is distributed through its non-departmental public bodies and the North/South Language Body. They are all public authorities by virtue of section 75(3)(b) and (c) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and are required to produce equality schemes. Such schemes detail the policies, including funding policies, which will be subject to equality impact assessment. My Department’s funding will be equality-proofed in that way. In my routine review of the performance of non-departmental public bodies, I will monitor their progress on commitments in their equality schemes.

Ms Patricia Lewsley: I thank the Minister for his answer. Perhaps he can answer a few further questions. Can he inform me how sport for the disabled is resourced? What percentage of the Exchequer and lottery sports funding has been allocated specifically to funding sports for the disabled? Moreover, can the Minister tell the House what the Sports Council for Northern Ireland is doing to promote the participation in sport of people with disabilities?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I regret that I cannot indicate specific amounts, but I will certainly write to MsLewsley with information about Sports Council funding and on the other matters about which she asked questions. I gave the information in response to a similar question in the past, either in written or in oral form. However, I will certainly update those facts if required.
The Department and the Sports Council take their responsibilities seriously with regard to equality. Their individual equality schemes will bear testimony to that by ensuring that everyone is treated equally. Participation and access will be key themes in the Department’s approach to sport, not least with regard to those suffering a disability.

Mrs Joan Carson: Almost all Culture, Arts and Leisure funding is distributed via the bureaucracy of "quangoland". However, does the Minister not accept that equality might be better safeguarded if funding were provided by more direct means, such as through local government? Will he undertake to ensure that the matter is considered as part of the review of public administration?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: All parties agree that a review of public administration is required. Clearly, when that review takes place, all bodies, such as the Sports Council and the Arts Council, which are in the remit of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, will be included. Those bodies are governed by equality schemes and programmes under the new targeting social need programme. Changes and improvements have taken place, and those will ensure that everyone is treated fairly. We are trying to ensure that no barriers to access, participation and involvement are put in place by the Administration or the public bodies for which it is responsible.

Athletics

Mr David Hilditch: 5. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to detail his plans to promote athletics throughout Northern Ireland.
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Mr Michael McGimpsey: The Sports Council for Northern Ireland is responsible for the promotion and development of sport in the Province. The council works closely with the Northern Ireland Athletics Federation, which is the governing body for athletics. Athletics has benefited recently through various National Lottery-funded talented athlete programmes, which are aimed at improving athletes’ performance levels and the quality of potential athletes. Lottery awards have also been allocated to capital projects, which will enhance sports development opportunities for future generations of athletes.
In addition, the proposed Sports Institute for Northern Ireland at the University of Ulster’s Jordanstown campus will offer specialised training facilities and top-of-the-range back-up services to enable those who are part of it to perform to their full potential.

Mr David Hilditch: Does the Minister agree that, although Northern Ireland has hosted and promoted several international events in recent years, that appears to have been to the detriment of grass-roots athletics in Northern Ireland, which appears to be in constant decline?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I am not sure that I agree that the sport is in constant decline. For example, the Sports Council recently made several awards under the various talented athlete programmes. I have not heard the Northern Ireland Athletics Federation say that it is in serious decline.
To an extent, all sports are in competition with each other in developing their participants. We in Northern Ireland often fail to recognise that there is great sporting activity here, and that includes athletics. It is wrong to ignore that fact or to fail to develop the talent. If MrHilditch has examples of where the sport could be improved, I will be happy to discuss them with the Northern Ireland Athletics Federation and the Sports Council.

Mr Jim Wilson: Given that we wish to encourage more young people into sport, is the Minister in a position to indicate whether his Department will offer assistance to the Antrim athletics stadium, which is one of the Province’s better known stadiums and is much used by schools from a wide area?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I am aware of the problems surrounding the Antrim stadium. It is now about 20years old and requires investment — probably considerable expenditure. We have been in discussions with and sought clarification from the council on several issues. It is estimated that about £1·6million will be required to bring the Antrim Forum back up to standard. We are proceeding with the matter as best we can, and we will look at how we can manage to give support to Antrim Council to ensure that the venue is upgraded. It plays an important role in the sporting life of the Province. MrWilson is quite right — 60% of its use is by schools.

Mr Kieran McCarthy: The Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee had a worthwhile presentation last week from a very athletic group called the Northern Ireland Karate-Do Wado-Kai. Has the Minister any plans to give more support, that financial or otherwise, to that very athletic sport?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I cannot be specific on that group, or that sport. The Sports Council is the intermediate funding body, which is responsible for encouraging and developing sport. The group should make an application to the Sports Council in the first instance. If it feels that it is being treated unfairly or is not being given due consideration, it is quite free, through MrMcCarthy or others, to come to the Department, and I will ensure that its case is considered. It is a matter of satisfying criteria for funding, and if it does that, funding will be forthcoming.

EU and IFI Funds (West Tyrone)

Mr Oliver Gibson: 6. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to detail the criteria used by departmental agencies when distributing European Union funds and funding from the International Fund for Ireland to West Tyrone.
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Mr Michael McGimpsey: I am not aware of any agencies under my authority that are at present responsible for distributing European funds or funds from the International Fund for Ireland anywhere in Northern Ireland.

Mr Oliver Gibson: I presume that the Lottery Board and the Sports Council are under the Minister’s aegis. Is he aware that the last allocation of funding by those bodies was of 49% to GAA sports and 4% to football? One is a cross-community activity, and the other is regarded as being exclusively Roman Catholic. Would the Minister care to comment?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I am not aware of the precise details. I can certainly investigate the matter and write to Mr Gibson about the balance of funding between football and GAA. It is, however, a matter of making an application. Applications which satisfy the criteria are successful, and those which do not, are not. If he has specific examples, I will be happy to investigate them for him.
I have heard this sort of thing said before, but any time when I have looked at the matter I have been unable to satisfy myself that there has been unfair treatment. We are anxious to ensure that this does not happen. Equity and fair treatment are the cornerstones of funding allocations through all bodies under the Departments of the Administration.

Mr Derek Hussey: Will the Minister say whether his Department has any responsibility for the distribution of Peace II money and whether such money will be allocated to West Tyrone? Indeed, following the previous question, I ask whether the money will be shared more fairly than Lottery Fund money is.

Mr Michael McGimpsey: With regard to the third part of that question, I attempted to deal with the suggestion that funding needs to be shared more fairly in my answer to MrGibson.
I will investigate that matter, and if we come up with something, I will communicate with MrHussey. The Department expects around £4million of Peace II funding over fiveyears to be spent on water-based tourism. As one would expect, funding will be allocated against set criteria. Bids that come forward from West Tyrone will determine its allocation; I cannot predict what will go to West Tyrone until bidding starts. Funding has not yet begun, so bids from West Tyrone are premature.

Cultural Traditions: Museum Exhibitions

Mr Billy Armstrong: 7. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to outline the role of museums when mounting major exhibitions with respect to the depiction of cultural traditions.
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Mr Michael McGimpsey: One of my key strategic objectives is to promote greater understanding and respect for cultural diversity. That includes promoting a greater understanding of and respect for the different cultural traditions in Northern Ireland. Both the National Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland (MAGNI) and local museums have an important part to play in the process. MAGNI is required by statute to promote awareness, appreciation and understanding of people’s culture and way of life with particular regard to the heritage of Northern Ireland. That approach is reflected, for example, in its current Icons of Identity exhibitions and its work to commemorate the Act of Union. It also plans, as it said in its vision statement, to tell the history of the people of Ireland with particular emphasis on the history and heritage of Northern Ireland.

Mr Billy Armstrong: Is the Minister satisfied that museums show due regard for the culture of most people in Northern Ireland, which is Ulster culture? Can he say whether any plans have been developed to commemorate the Act of Union with a suitable display or exhibition in one of our principal museums, such as the Ulster Museum?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: To answer the first question, if any of us were satisfied, none of us would be in public life. There is always room for improvement, no matter what you look at. We will continue to do what we can to strengthen and to improve.
On the question of the Act of Union, an exhibition is currently under way. It will be displayed in the Ulster Museum at the Botanic Gardens in Belfast for a period of threemonths beginning in June.

Mr Eamonn ONeill: I am quite sure that the question was referring to the Act of Union of 1801 between all of Ireland and Britain. However, perhaps I might refer to the actual question relating to museums and their role. Has the Minister got a date yet for the publication of the report into regional museums? Does he agree that the report has been long awaited and that it will have considerable significance in promoting cultural identity in Northern Ireland? Has he begun preparations for a funding stream to implement what we hope will be the enlightened recommendations of that report?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I assume that I missed or lost the first part of the question. Is the Member referring to the local museums and heritage review? The review steering group intends to present the report jointly to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Department of the Environment by the end of February. I have not seen it, but that will mark the end of the review, and the Departments will then consult and respond to the steering group’s recommendations, which will fall under several headings. The resource implications will be a part of that, and I have no doubt that MrONeill and the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee will have suggestions. I look forward to sharing the review with the Committee and to hearing its suggestions and considerations in due course.

TG4

Mr Barry McElduff: 8. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to give his assessment of the benefits of the wider availability of TG4 in Northern Ireland.
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Mr Michael McGimpsey: Policy in respect of broadcasting is a reserved matter and is the responsibility of the UK Government’s Department for Culture, Media and Sport.
In the recently published communications White Paper ‘A New Future For Communications’ the UK Government said that it aimed to give effect to the commitments in the Belfast Agreement relating to the broadcasting of Irish-language programmes and to the support of film and television production in Northern Ireland.
The wider availability of TG4 in Northern Ireland allows more of the Irish-language community in Northern Ireland to watch Irish-medium programmes. It also increases awareness of the language generally and affords viewers the opportunity to learn the Irish language through the medium of television.

Mr Barry McElduff: Go raibh maith agat. I appreciate that the complete provision of TG4 throughout Ireland, and other matters pertaining to broadcasting are, indeed, reserved matters. None the less, I seek a commitment from the Minister to lobby the Irish and British broadcasting authorities to ensure the complete availability of TG4. Yesterday they had excellent coverage of the game between Bellaghy and Crossmolina, but too few people who wanted to see it got to do so. I also ask the Minister to lobby the BBC to commission new programmes in Irish. Go raibh maith agat.

Mr Donovan McClelland: Minister, the time is up. Will you answer Mr McElduff’s question in writing?

Mr Michael McGimpsey: I will.

Agriculture and Rural Development

Fishing Industry

Mr Jim Shannon: 1. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to detail if additional European Union funding will be available for the fishing industry; and to make a statement.
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Mr Eddie McGrady: 8. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to outline the date when the bid for Fishing Industry Finance and Grants (Fisheries Guidance) Programme funding will be approved by the European Commission; and to make a statement.
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Ms Brid Rodgers: Under the Community Support Framework, the European Commission has approved 29 million euros for assistance to the Northern Irish fishing industry. However, details of how such funding is to be allocated between the different fisheries measures have still to be agreed by the Commission, as they are contained in the overall Northern Ireland Transitional I programme.
I am, therefore, not in a position to outline how the funding will be allocated. As the Member will appreciate, I cannot tell him exactly when the European Commission will approve the operational programme, but I am reasonably confident that approval should be forthcoming before the end of March.

Mr Jim Shannon: There is much talk in the fishing industry about the assistance that could be offered, and the Minister mentioned the sum of 29 million euros. I understand from the fishing industry that there could be £20 million available. Will the Minister give us a breakdown of how the funding will be allocated? For instance, how much will go on decommissioning and how much on the promotion of the finished product? More importantly, will the Minister tell us the start date for the scheme? The fishermen and the fishing industry need the finance now. Will there be sufficient financial assistance to take on the task of maintaining the fishing industry?

Ms Brid Rodgers: I cannot give details of the scheme, for it has not yet been approved. It would be wrong of me to pre-empt what will, or will not, be approved. Similarly, I cannot give a start date until the approval is through. I hope to receive it by the end of March 2001 at the latest.
As to what can be done for the industry, I am obviously considering a decommissioning scheme. My officials are consulting with the industry about the possibility. I cannot give a breakdown as yet, for the reasons that I have mentioned, but we are having consultations about it, so that when we do — as I hope — get the go-ahead, we will be ready to move on it as soon as possible. Apart from that, I am taking all other possible measures. In relation to the specific questions that the Member has asked, those are the only answers I am able to give.

Mr Eamonn ONeill: We all realise the difficulty that the Minister and her Department are in while they await definitive guidance from Europe. However, the Minister will have plans for the decommissioning of fishing vessels. Will she detail for us what sort of decommissioning she would like to see? What plans does she have for such a scheme?

Ms Brid Rodgers: The decommissioning scheme will be aimed at reducing capacity to help fishermen with the difficulty of balancing the conservation of stocks with the preservation of their livelihood. The scheme is with the European Commission for approval.
In anticipation of the programme being approved in the next few weeks, I am developing the details of the decommissioning scheme and consulting with the fishing industry. However, I am not yet able to provide those details.

John Taylor: Since funding for the fishing industry comes from the common fisheries policy, which has failed the fishermen of County Down and is now under review, will the Minister say whether the Department has made any representations in relation to the review of the common fisheries policy?
Secondly, does she support the idea of regionalisation? Thirdly, as funding from the common fisheries policy is partly expended by the Northern Ireland Harbour Fisheries Authority, is the Minister aware of the growing concern among Portavogie fishermen about delays and decisions made by the board of that organisation, and will she make representations to ensure more speedy and efficient decision-making processes for that board?

Ms Brid Rodgers: In relation to the common fisheries policy, I expect to see a Green Paper in March, and we will be making our contribution to that through the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I have already had informal discussions with European officials, and I am aware that a review of the common fisheries policy is being prepared. The Northern Ireland Harbour Fishery Authority is no longer in deficit because of the hard work of board members.
The board is considering several issues, and the Member may be referring to the improvements to Kilkeel harbour. The board is examining the situation and is considering the wider implications of an integrated plan for the entire Kilkeel area. To date, they have not requested any funding from me, but they have been working well within their difficult remit.

Grant Applications: Appeals

Mrs Eileen Bell: 2. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to outline progress towards the establishment of an appeals mechanism in respect of grant applications to her Department.
(AQO864/00)

Ms Brid Rodgers: My Department will shortly issue a consultation paper to the industry as the first step towards establishing an independent appeals mechanism for decisions concerning livestock and area-based payments. I hope that, following consultation, we will be able to proceed with setting up the structures required to have the new appeals procedure operational before the end of the year.

Mrs Eileen Bell: I am glad that the new procedure should be in place by the end of the year because on 5 December 2000, in response to the question from David Ford, the Minister said:
"We have a draft in preparation".
Scotland already has an ombudsman, and Wales will commence consultation in the autumn. When will we see progress here? May we have a timetable for that?

Ms Brid Rodgers: I am aware that the Scots have already got their appeals mechanism in place and that England and Wales have begun the consultation process. We hope to start consulting in the next few weeks, and that is a statutory obligation. Following consultation, we will assess the results and go through the Nolan procedures to establish the independent mechanism.
It is difficult to put a timetable on that work. I will be moving as quickly as possible because I recognise the importance — especially under the Human Rights Act 1998 — of having an independent mechanism so that people can feel that they have the option to bring an appeal for independent assessment outside the authority that made the decision.

Importation of Condemned Specified Risk Material

Mr Gardiner Kane: 3. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development if she is aware of the import of condemned specified risk material (SRM) from the rendering plant in County Cavan.
(AQO870/00)

Ms Brid Rodgers: I was aware that imports of SRM were taking place. However, it was derived from animals slaughtered for human consumption, and none was derived from condemned animals. Processed SRM from Monery By-Products — now called Monery 2000 Ltd — in County Cavan was exported from the Republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland for landfill at the Tullyvar site at Aughnacloy. The imports were under licence from my Department and took place from July1999 until December2000.
New European Union rules on SRM were introduced by the European Commission on 29June2000 through Commission decision 2000/418. That decision, which came into force on 1October2000, made it illegal to export SRM to another member state, except for the purposes of incineration. As the Republic of Ireland authorities lacked the necessary landfill facilities to deal with the material, they requested that the trade continue beyond 1October 2000 while they sought a derogation from the Commission. That approach was unsuccessful, and the Republic of Ireland authorities immediately stopped the trade in December2000. No further trade has occurred since.

Mr Gardiner Kane: Did the import practice stop in accordance with EU regulations that prohibit the transfer of such material? In complying with the regulation, has the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development admitted that the material was SRM? Can the Minister confirm that Monery 2000 Ltd is a designated plant for SRM? Was one day’s notice given to allow a veterinary inspection to be carried out every time consignments for Aughnacloy were dispatched? Can the Minister be satisfied with the integrity of licences for such material, given that MrFox from the Irish Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development found himself in prison for falsifying licences?

Ms Brid Rodgers: There are six or seven questions, and I may not have heard them all correctly, but I will do my best to answer. If I miss one, I will respond in writing.
First, the imported material is buried at Tullyvar, and it will remained buried. It was processed to the required EU standard before burial. The processing reduced any risk from BSE to negligible proportions. Prior to import, the SRM was processed to standards laid down by the Commission — decision 96/449/EC, which requires the material to be heated to a core temperature of 133°C for 20minutes at a pressure of 3 bar. The particle size of the raw material prior to processing must be reduced to at most 50mm by means of a pre-breaker or grinder.
I further reassure the Member that imports were subject to strict veterinary controls laid down in the licence granted by my Department. Those controls required processing before import to the required EU standard; advance notice of the import; veterinary certification by the Republic of Ireland authorities that the material had been processed to the required EU standard; transportation in sealed, leak-proof containers to arrive during working hours; and containers and vehicles to be cleansed and disinfected before leaving the Tullyvar landfill site. There were also veterinary checks of the consignments on their arrival at Tullyvar to ensure that those conditions had been met.

Mr Boyd Douglas: Specified risk material is being put into the landfill site at GreenhillRoad in County Antrim, and as much as 100,000 tonnes of meat and bonemeal — some of which may be contaminated — is being stored throughout Northern Ireland. Does the Minister agree that, with hindsight, SRM should never have been accepted from the South?

Ms Brid Rodgers: As regards SRM coming in from the South, we were not able, under the EU free-trade regulations, to refuse such material. That was the case until the EU changed the regulation and stipulated that such material should not be transported from one country to another. At that time the Republic of Ireland sought a derogation, and while that was taking place the practice was allowed to continue. However, as soon as the derogation was refused, the practice was stopped.
I cannot comment on the Member’s other question because I do not have the specific details here. I will answer him in writing.

Mrs Joan Carson: It is difficult to get answers about what actually happened at the Tullyvar site. I welcome the interest shown by the DUP in trying to get an answer to questions that I have been raising for some considerable time.
The Minister mentioned that the material arrived in sealed containers. I would like an assurance that they were really sealed. Can we be assured that they were permanently sealed and that there is no risk of material from the dump at Tullyvar getting into the watercourse or being siphoned off into it as part of the procedures?
Can the Minister assure me that she will work with the Department of the Environment to ensure that no more dangerous materials are imported into Northern Ireland? Will she put pressure on the Republic of Ireland authorities to abide by their responsibilities in respect of trans-frontier transport of waste?

Mr Donovan McClelland: I remind the Member that the convention is to ask one question rather than a series.

Mrs Joan Carson: There are so many issues. I will raise them in a written question.

Mr Donovan McClelland: I am sure the Minister will be quite happy to answer in writing.

Ms Brid Rodgers: I know that the Member has already raised those matters with me in writing.
As regards the risk to human health and SRM getting into the watercourse, the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee (SEAC) — an independent scientific advisory committee — has made it clear that the risk of BSE from buried SRM is negligible. That is the advice which we have received. Of course, any risk to human health would be a matter for the Food Standards Agency, not for my Department.
As regards whether the containers were sealed, the answer is yes. They were inspected on arrival. Veterinary checks were carried out, and everything was found to be in order.

Sheepmeat

Mr P J Bradley: 4. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to say when she expects the European Commission to bring forward proposals for the review of the sheepmeat regime.
(AQO829/00)

Ms Brid Rodgers: I understand that the Commission aims to bring forward proposals for the reform of the sheepmeat regime for discussion at the next Agriculture Council meeting in March. Knowing this, we have been pressing the case from a UK and Northern Ireland point of view. Indeed, my officials attended a meeting with the Commission on 10 January to discuss the matter.
That proved useful, and the Commission was advised of the importance of the sheep premium to sheepmeat producers, and in particular of the less favoured areas supplement to hill farmers, who suffer from a lack of alternative agricultural activities. The Commission officials were also told that, while we were keen to see the regime simplified — and can see advantage in a move to a flat rate premium because it would introduce a degree of certainty into the regime for producers — any flat rate must be fair. We will be following developments closely.

Mr P J Bradley: The recent announcement regarding the regime seems to indicate that Brussels wants to replace variable premiums with fixed headage premiums. I do not know how we will be able to deal with that. However, does the Minister agree on the importance of a much higher flat rate than has been the case recently?

Ms Brid Rodgers: I am aware of the falling value of the sheep annual premium in recent years. That has been due partly to the strength of sterling, but also to the differential between the market values in the rest of Europe and the UK — and Northern Ireland in particular — which means that our subsidy is less. In fact, a flat rate has been suggested by the Scottish college that carried out a study on behalf of the Commission. The farmers and I would be happy to see a flat rate introduced, and it is a possibility. It would need to be set at a much higher rate, because recently the annual sheep premium has gradually decreased every year, and that is clearly unacceptable from our point of view.

Farm Incomes

Mr John Fee: 5. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to give her assessment of farm incomes in Northern Ireland; and to make a statement.
(AQO827/00)

Ms Brid Rodgers: Income figures for Northern Ireland, which were published on 31January2001, show that, at the aggregate level, the total income from farming and the return to farmers and all their family members working on farms rose by 6% to £98million — 3% in real terms — in 2000.
At the individual farm level, it is forecast that the average net farm income will have increased by approximately £3,000 per farm in 2000-01, with improvements in all farm types other than cereals. In the cases of general cropping, in less favoured areas, cattle and sheep, pigs and poultry and mixed farms’ average incomes are expected to return to profit from loss. However, the average income from lowland cattle and sheep farms is expected to have remained negative, despite some improvement.
Although I welcome this improvement, however slight, incomes remain low by historical standards. The figures reflect the serious problems experienced by the agriculture industry in Northern Ireland in recent years. The weak euro has been the primary cause of the industry’s difficulties. The payment of agrimonetary compensation, worth almost £14million to Northern Ireland in 2000, has been an important element in bolstering incomes. While the increase in agriculture income is small, it represents a hopeful sign that the worst of the income difficulties may be over.

Mr John Fee: I thank the Minister for a detailed answer. I know that she understands better than most that there has been a serious decline in recent years across every agriculture sector, be it sheep, beef, dairy, poultry, cereals, or whatever. The news that the Minister gave is extremely welcome, but is it her Department’s assessment that the recession in agriculture has finally bottomed out, and what are its predictions for farm incomes over the next few years?

Ms Brid Rodgers: I agree with Mr Fee about the difficult times that the farming community has been through from an income point of view. I would like to think that they have bottomed out. However, much will depend on future movements in the sterling/euro exchange rate. There are now some grounds for mild optimism in the short to medium term. They include the recent strengthening of the euro and the generally improved prices currently prevailing for several commodities compared to those in the early part of last year. However, there has been another slight decrease in some prices in recent days.
Against that, the BSE problem in other EU countries has the potential to have a negative impact on beef prices in the British Isles. It will clearly have an effect on our market, and that is why I will argue for the payment of all agrimoney compensation while it is still available.

Mr Billy Armstrong: Does the Minister accept that, although there may have been a tiny increase in the total agriculture income last year, it has fallen by a massive 73% since 1995 — more than in England, Wales or Scotland? How much importance does the Minister attach to reversing the decline, and does she have any plans to achieve that?

Ms Brid Rodgers: I recognise that the rise comes against the backdrop of a steep fall in recent years. I also note that although our income level is slightly up, that is not the case in Great Britain. Indeed, Wales had a negative return in that it had a fall of 105%.
However, in relation to what I can do to address it, as I have already said, I will lobby for the full agrimonetary compensation to be paid. I am looking at every measure that we can take to improve marketing, skills and the quality of beef. There are issues beyond my control, such as the effect that the present BSE situation is having on the markets in continental Europe with the consequent domino effect in Northern Ireland. In that situation, I can only appeal to the good sense of consumers to exercise choice when buying and for retailers also to play their part.

Organic Farming

Mr David Ford: 6. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to give her assessment of the differential rates of grant paid to organic farmers in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
(AQO866/00)

Ms Brid Rodgers: I am seeking to encourage the development of a vibrant organic sector in Northern Ireland. Under the Northern Ireland Rural Development Plan 2000-06, £9 million has been made available for a new organic farming scheme, which will be open to applicants from 1 March 2001. Those resources will enable the scheme to grow from its present level of 20 producers farming just over 1,000 hectares to 1,000 farmers with 30,000 hectares under agreement by 2006.
Payments to producers under the organic farming scheme will total, over a period of five years, £450 a hectare for land eligible for the arable area payment scheme (AAPS) and for land in permanent crops. Payments of £350 a hectare will be made for improved land not eligible for that scheme, with £50 a hectare for unimproved grassland or rough grazing land. Most of the payments will be made in the first two years, and producers will also receive lump sums of £300 in the first year, £200 in the second and £100 in the third year towards the initial costs of advice and training.
In the Republic of Ireland, under the rural environment protection scheme (REPS), organic farmers receive annual payments of 181 euros (approximately £110) a hectare for land in conversion and 91 euros (approximately £55) a hectare for land fully converted, up to a maximum of 40 hectares. The REPS agreement is for five years, but it can be renewed with payments for fully converted land continuing at the lower rate.
The need for ongoing payments to organic farmers is likely to emerge in the report on the strategic study of the organic sector, which is being completed. I will study any such recommendations carefully, though there is no financial provision for any such payments.

Mr David Ford: I thank the Minister for detailing what is currently paid, but she did not refer to the fact that the UK is the only country in the EU that does not make provision for ongoing payments under the organic aid scheme, or something similar. Does she accept that Northern Ireland producers have particular problems, given the land border with a member state that pays such an ongoing grant? Does she also accept that there is a real danger that farmers in Northern Ireland could convert to organic production because of the current level of grant and subsequently be undercut by producers elsewhere in Europe unless there is ongoing support?

Ms Brid Rodgers: A study of the organic farming scheme is currently taking place. I am willing consider the report that I will get from those consultants following their strategic study of the Northern Ireland organic sector. I am open-minded on the issue, and I await that study’s recommendations. I also have to bear in mind — and I remind Mr Ford of this — that resources will always be a problem, but I will do what I can to deal with the issue.

Mr Derek Hussey: The Minister will now be aware of the seven-point plan brought forward by Mr Fischler for dealing with beef prices. It includes an exemption to use set-aside land for organic farming. Has she assessed the impact of that proposal with regard to her previous answers?
(Mr Deputy Speaker [Sir John Gorman] in the Chair)

Ms Brid Rodgers: I am aware of the seven proposals that have come from the Commission, and at present I am discussing those proposals with the industry. This morning I had a meeting with the Ulster Farmers’ Union. I will consider all the implications, but I have not assessed any one in particular. I am going to the agriculture meeting in Brussels next Monday, and it is to be hoped that I will be in a better position then to give a fuller answer to the question.

Quality Beef Scheme: Non-Genetically-Modified Feed

Mr Gerry McHugh: 7. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to confirm that the difficulty in sourcing non-genetically-modified feed for farm animals may affect the implementation of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development quality beef scheme.
(AQO840/00)

Ms Brid Rodgers: I assume that the Member is referring to the farm quality assurance scheme, which is managed by the Livestock and Meat Commission for Northern Ireland on behalf of the industry. I understand that industry representatives are considering the potential under the scheme to provide some assurance that animals have not been fed genetically modified foods for some period prior to slaughter. This is a commercial matter for industry interests to consider and decide how they wish to proceed. I am advised by the Northern Ireland grain trade that it is possible to supply genetically-modified-free feed, but at an additional cost.

Supply:Spring Supplementary Estimates (2000-01) and Vote on Account (2001-02)

Debate resumed on motion:
That the Assembly approves that a further sum not exceeding £195,599,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund to complete or defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31 March 2001 for expenditure by Northern Ireland Departments, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern Ireland Audit Office, the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Office for the Regulation of Electricity and Gas. — [Mr Durkan]
The following motion stood in the Order Paper:
That the Assembly approves that a sum not exceeding £3,806,414,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for Northern Ireland Departments, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern Ireland Audit Office, the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Office for the Regulation of Electricity and Gas for the year ending 31 March 2002 and that resources not exceeding £4,305,870,000 be authorised, on account, for use by Northern Ireland Departments, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern Ireland Audit Office, the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Office for the Regulation of Electricity and Gas for the year ending 31 March 2002. — [Mr Durkan]

Mr Mark Durkan: I listened with great interest to the points that have been raised by Members. Members’ participation has fully reflected the opening comments of the Speaker this morning about the debate providing an opportunity to raise matters of interest or concern to them. Twenty-one Members took that opportunity, and that reflects the high number of Members who contributed in earlier Budget debates.
The Chairperson of the Finance and Personnel Committee, Mr Molloy, mentioned his concern about the process for Assembly consideration of the financial cycle. That same theme was picked up by other Members, including Alex Maskey, Seamus Close, Monica McWilliams, William Hay, Gardiner Kane and George Savage. Their criticisms and concerns are noted and will form an important part of considering how improvements can be made. I assure Members that the issue will be carefully considered.
There are practical and timing issues, but it is the aim of the Department of Finance and Personnel to ensure that Committees have a greater role and involvement in scrutinising the financial proposals and performance of their Departments and that the Finance and Personnel Committee is as fully involved as possible at an early stage.
I understand Members’ concerns, and I will not attempt to argue that the processes that have been followed so far have been adequate, much less perfect. As I have emphasised repeatedly to the Finance and Personnel Committee, the timetable for each monitoring round is constrained, but there is room for more discussion with the Committees before a result is achieved. I will explore further how that best can be facilitated.
However, I have told Committee members on several occasions that they are free to ask questions at the various stages of the processes that are now culminating in the Estimates. That applies for discussions about the annual Budget as well as for each monitoring round. Committee members need not await a procedural starting gun from me to begin scrutiny and questioning. The Department of Finance and Personnel has not turned down any requests for information or elaboration, and I would be surprised if any Department had done so.
Concerns have been raised today that people have not had enough time to consider the Estimates. The Estimates cover allocations previously announced in monitoring rounds and in the second set of Estimates in the Budget. Committees have had information available to them that they could pursue with relevant Departments or question the Department of Finance and Personnel about. Committees have been quite free to pursue the sort of questions that were raised today through the channels available to them, based on the information that they had from the previous monitoring decisions and the previous Budget proposals.
I am aware of the views that were specifically articulated by MrClose about the adequacy of the role of the Assembly and its Committees in contributing to thinking on the allocation of resources and the scrutiny of detailed Estimates. I cannot be unconditional in responding to those arguments. The Executive have a clear responsibility in the process. However, given MrClose’s views and the views of others, I am willing to consider how we can close the gap he described. I will take the views of the Finance and Personnel Committee on the matter. We need dialogue to enable a better all-round understanding of the constraints and the opportunities to refine and improve what happens. That is not just in the interests of the Assembly and the Executive, but in the interests of the public.
In response to the Finance and Personnel Committee’s report, the Executive plan to bring forward the draft Budget as early as possible after the summer recess. That was underlined again today by MrMolloy.
I welcome the comments of several Members, including MrLeslie and MsMcWilliams, on the introduction of resource accounting and budgeting and the related work on the development of public service agreements, which MrMaskey welcomed. Those are important steps forward for improving financial and operational management in Departments. They will further enhance the accountability of Departments to the Assembly and address many of the concerns raised by Members in that regard.
For example, better information should be available on the true costs of services, the position of the Department against budget and, more importantly, progress against the delivery of departmental objectives that the Assembly wants to see. Those developments provide further opportunities to enhance the scope of the Assembly and its Committees in playing a major role in the development of the spending plans.
I will attempt to answer as many of the Members’ points as possible. However, it would not be appropriate for me to make definitive responses on some issues that are currently subject to other processes, such as consideration by the Public Accounts Committee.
I want to stress that the spending plans of 11 Departments, which cover a very wide range of public services, change materially as each year progresses. At each point, whether setting the original Budget or in each monitoring round, we make the best estimates possible at the time and judge what can be committed.
Thus, while the pattern has been that we have needed Supplementary Estimates of 2% to 2·5% of the Main Estimates provision, that arises through a different combination of factors in each year that cannot be predicted at the start of the year. However, it would be wrong to assume that that implies that there is always money available and that we can afford to do more than we have announced.
The Executive have faced hard choices, and that will continue to be the case as we go forward. MrMolloy acknowledged our role in reallocating resources and welcomed the reduction in the regional rate from that originally proposed. Other Members, including MrPoots, also touched on that point. He asked us to keep under review our scope to raise income through other means. We will do that, although MrMolloy will be aware that the opportunities to add to resources from local revenues are very limited.
However, the review of the regional rate will be thorough and wide-ranging. That is the place to explore the concerns that Mr Molloy, Mr Poots, Mr Close and others have raised about various aspects of the regional rate.
I want to emphasise that, as I explained last week, we acted on the rates increases as soon as action was possible, as had been promised all along. Given the many requests for additional funding that we have heard today in the course of the debate, I have to repeat that we need the revenue from the rates. We need not damage the case we need to make to the Treasury on the Barnett formula. Now is not the time to address the Barnett issue in full, but I note and welcome the comments that several Members made on it. I take Mr Molloy’s point, also referred to by Mr Maskey, about the product of the Barnett formula in relation to our needs. That will be addressed with determination.
It is worth saying that the interests of Scotland and Wales may not coincide with our own, and we cannot presume that there can be a united approach on the subject just because we desire one.
Mr Leslie’s cautious observations about the nature of the challenge on Barnett should be well taken. However, the 2000 spending review highlighted the inadequacies of the Barnett mechanism in funding the devolved regions. I have made representations to the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary of the Treasury, as have the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, on the issue. It is imperative that the problem be resolved before the next spending review. The full introduction of resource accounting and budgeting means that it is imperative that the Treasury recognises the level of need in Northern Ireland and the structural differences between Northern Ireland’s and Great Britain’s public sectors.
Mr Molloy raised the question of whether our approach to determining Votes on Account in future will be based on a percentage of estimated spend rather than the previous year’s expenditure. That will be determined in the light of experience, but obviously, and most importantly, we do not wish to seek approval for an inadequate resource for the period to be covered.
Dr Birnie referred to the management development programme, as did Ms McWilliams. Reduced requirements have been declared on that programme, because some schemes were insufficiently developed to allow them to run in the current year. However, schemes that are in operation are running at almost full capacity.
The Department expects all planned schemes to run at or near full capacity next year. DrBirnie also mentioned recruitment to the work track programme — another point taken up by MsMcWilliams. Recruitment to that programme has been slower than expected. When the programme started in August 1999, the Department estimated that capacity would build up to 1,050 places early in 2000-01. At present 850 people are in the programme, and recruitment is continuing.
Mr Poots raised points on several areas, including wastage and fraud in the Health Service, victims, urban regeneration, Department of the Environment funding, road maintenance and the Antrim to Knockmore railway line.
I attach a high priority to ensuring that wastage and fraud, in any service, are rigorously addressed. The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety is also determined to prevent, detect and pursue fraud anywhere in the health and personal social services. To that end, it has implemented a broad-based action plan to counter both patient-based and practitioner-based fraud and plans to extend counter-fraud measures to the wider Health Service.
On Mr Poots’s comments on victims, and in reply to concerns from Ms Bell, I can say that the Executive attach a high priority to their needs. Detailed proposals for the expenditure are still to be finalised, but it will be important to ensure that the £320,000 allocated to the Victims Unit will be used as efficiently and effectively as possible. We should also bear in mind that funding will be complementary to a further allocation of £6·7 million available from Peace II later this year.
The Executive are committed to the pursuit of policies that directly address divisions in the community. We are following policies and supporting practical measures that will, over time, help to ease community divisions and thereby reinforce new political institutions commanding widespread public support.
I also note the comments about urban regeneration. That is primarily for the Minister for Social Development. While welcoming the in-year increases for historic buildings, road safety officers, planners, and so on in the Department of the Environment, Edwin Poots pressed the need for further resources for the Environment and Heritage Service to implement European environment Directives. The Executive and the Assembly have recognised that need by providing an extra £9 million in next year’s Budget.
Mr Poots, William Hay, Kieran McCarthy and Gerry McHugh all stressed the need for further investment in roads maintenance. The additional allocations made in the December monitoring indicate that the Executive are aware of the need, in the context of available resources and competing priorities. Mr Hay’s points on the slippage in roads capital expenditure are a matter for the Minister for Regional Development.
Mr Poots, Mr Close and Mr Hay raised the question of the Antrim to Knockmore railway after the Bleach Green line reopens. That is initially a matter for the Minister for Regional Development, but I must point out that the appraisal that underpinned the reopening of the Bleach Green line was based on the Knockmore line closing.
Delays in the provision of a new library for Lisburn occurred because of the lack of a suitable site. The favoured site had difficulties attached to it in the form of rights of way, but those have now been resolved, and the South Eastern Education and Library Board will complete its purchase. Provision of a library for Lisburn by conventional means would cost approximately £3 million. Adoption of such a route would have an adverse impact on the Department’s library development programme. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure is finalising the outline business case for the project, and it expects to allow the board to proceed with the PFI solution in the near future.
Mr Poots also raised the issue of the gas industry. The Executive are keen that the natural gas industry be extended outside the greater Belfast area. However, the development of a natural gas industry in the south east — Craigavon, Newry and Banbridge — depends on the private sector constructing a gas pipeline between the Republic and Northern Ireland. Proposals by British Gas Keyspan to construct a North/South pipeline from Belfast to Dublin have become less attractive due to the possible introduction of a public service levy on all new gas pipelines in the South and their failure to sign firm long-term contracts with major gas users — the power stations.
Mr Dallat raised the matter of Audit Office funding. In that connection, most of the additional powers arising from the Government Resources and Accounts Bill are discretionary or permissive and are not expected to have immediate spending consequences. Funding for the Northern Ireland Audit Office will be kept under review but will not be impeded by my Department.
I was pleased to note the welcome given by many Members to the Assembly’s increasing role in making its own decisions about financial allocations. The decisions taken following monitoring rounds reflect our judgement of such matters based on available information and views that have been expressed. I note the support for increased allocations for social purposes in the health, education and disability areas, as expressed by Patricia Lewsley, and the general support of Esmond Birnie for the Supplementary Estimates, linked to the proper view that money must be spent efficiently.
The question was raised as to why we should further invest in temporary school accommodation when the need is for longer-term provision of adequate facilities. That is a valid point. Inevitably we must secure an acceptable level of accommodation while the longer-term issues, which will require substantive funding, are addressed. Although we cannot resolve all of the shortcomings in capital provision in the short term, they will have a full place in our collective deliberations about priorities and needs as we progress through the next financial year.
Seamus Close typically covered a considerable amount of ground in his contribution to the debate. I have answered some of those points already, although I am certain that I will not be able to respond to his satisfaction on every point. I compliment him on the close scrutiny that he has given to the spring Supplementary Estimates booklet. All the time constraints about which he complained did not diminish his capacity in that regard.
MrClose also referred to the need for extra expenditure to bring forward the preparation of area plans and to implement the proposed Knockmore-to-Sprucefield road link. The spring Supplementary Estimates provide additional resources in this year for the preparation of area plans, as does the Budget for next year. The Knockmore-Sprucefield road link is a matter for the Minister for Regional Development to prioritise in his overall road capital budget.
On the matter of superannuation, a total of £97,951,000 is required to meet redundancy and early retirement costs, of which £91,426,000 is in respect of Prison Service redundancy schemes. The Prison Service costs have been fully offset by the Northern Ireland Office from moneys provided by the Treasury. The remaining £6·5million costs relate to a few minor schemes, the most notable covering Government training centre instructors.
Resources for Irish-medium education were referred to by some Members, namely MrPoots and MrMcHugh. Some were in favour while others were in some doubt. There are clear commitments in the Belfast Agreement to supporting the Irish language and integrated education as measures to embed parity of esteem and reconciliation. Pluralism and real choice should mean that parents do not have to bear unnecessary financial burdens. It should also mean that the smaller sectors have a realistic chance to develop, not only in large population centres, such as Belfast and Derry, but across rural areas.
The matter of clinical negligence was mentioned by MsMcWilliams. The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety is required to meet agreed settlements for clinical negligence in full. Total provision of £7·9million has been made in 2000-01. Of this, £4·9million has been provided by health boards from their Main Estimate provision and £3million by the Executive in December monitoring. £5million is earmarked to meet anticipated claims in 2001-02, but that figure will need to be kept under review.
ProfMcWilliams also referred to the Springvale project and PFI. I note her comments about the latter. However, the institutions are taking steps to set up a private finance initiative project board and to engage consultants to complete the outline business case. Building work has commenced on the community outreach centre, and an official European Community notice will be issued shortly, inviting tenders for the building of the applied research centre.
The main Springvale campus had been to open in September 2003. Following some legal and technical issues, which have taken time to resolve, the opening of the main campus has been deferred by one year, until September 2004. The in-year easement results from that delay.
Roads Service winter gritting was mentioned by Gerry McHugh and — I suppose from a slightly different angle — by Kieran McCarthy, as was Health Service expenditure. The detailed allocation of roads maintenance funding is a matter for the Minister for Regional Development, but I understand that gritting is undertaken in accordance with a programme based on the volume of traffic using a road, rather than its location.
As regards health, the Executive are concerned to ensure that Health Service expenditure is managed as effectively and efficiently as possible. Following the Executive’s agreement to my proposals to resolve the Health Service deficits through an injection of £18 million of additional funding, it was also agreed that the Department of Finance and Personnel, the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister should oversee a joint consultancy exercise. The origins — and the consequences — of the recent growth of deficits in the health and personal social services boards and trusts would be examined, as would the effectiveness of new arrangements recently put in place by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to ensure improved transparency and accountability.
Several Members, including Francie Molloy, Alex Maskey, William Hay, Michelle Gildernew and Patricia Lewsley, raised the matter of gap funding between Peace I and Peace II. Most welcomed the provision. I am fully aware of the difficulties faced by the community and voluntary sector in sustaining activities during the gap between Peace I and Peace II funding. In the current financial year the Executive have made gap funding available to address the problem. However, it is also widely recognised that gap funding is no substitute for having Peace II funding in place.
On 12 February, I announced to the Assembly that Departments would be authorised to make advance payments for projects that they judge will be eligible for funding and successful in an application under Peace II. In reply to Michelle Gildernew, I emphasise that the criteria used will be those that will apply to Peace II funding. They have been developed after detailed discussion involving all Departments.
Some judgement will be required as Departments apply the criteria. The safety net I mentioned on 12 February will help deal with the risk that there might be some cases where Departments assist a project in the short term, which does not in the end prove eligible for funding under Peace II. Two million pounds have been set aside under the Executive programme fund for social inclusion and community regeneration, with the aim of ensuring that the issue is fully dealt with.
Gerry McHugh mentioned libraries in rural areas. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure plans to carry out a review of the public library service that, among other things, will examine the extent to which it meets the needs of its clients, both as individuals and as communities. Individual allocations to education and library boards are made on the basis of an assessment of relative needs. That takes account of the home population in each board area. It is a matter for each education and library board to decide whether the public is better served by a static or mobile library. At present, there are 25 mobile libraries providing public services, and eight providing a service specifically for the housebound.
While welcoming the additional resources for roads and transport programmes in the Budget for 2001-02, Alban Maginness asked that more funding be provided for roads maintenance. As I said, the Executive are very aware of the need to maintain the roads infrastructure. We must look to the forthcoming regional transportation strategy to consider how our transport investment needs can be afforded in the context of the limited resources available.
Mr Maginness also raised a question on water and sewerage funding. He asked me to increase investment in water and sewerage services in particular. As Chairperson of the Regional Development Committee, he recognised that an additional £14·5 million was included in the 2001-02 Budget, approved by the Assembly in December. Beyond that, water bids on the Executive programme funds will of course be considered. In the future, it will be for the Assembly to consider the level of investment necessary in water and sewerage services and how best they can be funded, given the limited resources.
Ms Gildernew drew attention to housing unfitness and fuel poverty. She highlighted the need for increased spending to reduce the level of housing unfitness, to shorten waiting lists and to address the problem of fuel poverty. In 2000-01, the Housing Executive has been provided with additional funding of £16 million, of which £2 million will be used to combat fuel poverty and a further £3·5 million to provide disabled adaptations. As Ms Gildernew pointed out, that does not feature in the Supplementary Estimates. This is because, as I explained in my opening remarks this morning, some aspects of spending, such as the capital spending of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, are outside the vote system. In next year’s Budget, the Assembly has approved further additional expenditure in those areas in recognition of the importance that the Executive and the Assembly attach to the need for affordable investment in social housing.
Several Members raised issues about the increases in the costs of departmental administration. Mr Kane commented on the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, and similar points were made by Mr Savage. It is important to point out that the Department has direct and unavoidable responsibilities for providing essential services to the farming community.
Mr Poots and Ms McWilliams made points about the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. It is important to point out that some of the new responsibilities, which are central to the implementation and operation of the agreement, fall to that Department, with particular demands on senior staff. It is necessary that such important work be funded.
Mr McHugh spoke about the Department of Education. The central administration costs are a relatively small proportion of the overall provision.
I will try to cover a few further points that were raised in the course of debate. Both Mr Leslie and Mr Kennedy referred to skills in the Northern Ireland economy. The Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment has been taking steps to put in place a range of measures to identify current and emerging skills shortages and to implement training and education programmes to fill them. The programmes are open to both the unemployed and those in employment who wish to improve their skills and employability.
Mr Poots spoke about the moratorium on grants for hotel development. Following an independent review of hotel supply and demand in Northern Ireland, the Tourist Board introduced a policy in January 1997, which suspended financial support to hotel development projects within a 10-mile radius of Belfast city centre. Given that hotel developments have taken place without selective financial assistance in the area, it is likely that the moratorium will remain in place for the foreseeable future.
Ms McWilliams spoke about increased administration costs for the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. The departmental running costs allocation for the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment includes an additional £0·9 million to meet the cost of the private finance initiative contract with ICL for the provision of information technology services.
The increase is necessary because the baseline provision for phases one and two did not meet existing needs, and those facilities are vital to the proper functioning of the Department and its job centre network. The balance of £0·6 million was required to meet the increased workloads needed to support the Minister and to respond to the Assembly’s requests for information. Increased expenditure on administration in the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure stems from the need to put in place the structures necessary to support the Minister and to respond to enquiries from the Assembly. Because it is a new Department, expenditure is also required to research and develop strategies to meet the needs of its diverse portfolio.
This has been a wide-ranging and interesting debate, and I have responded to as many points as possible, while trying to ensure that I do not spend too much time on my winding-up speech. I thank Members for their valuable contributions, not just in this debate but through the Committees, correspondence and questions posed here on other occasions. If I have not responded to any substantive point, I will be glad to reply in writing myself or ask the relevant Minister to do so.
I want to underline a point that I made at the beginning of this winding-up speech. I recognise the frustrations of Members if they feel that information important to a debate on a motion subject to resolution is not available to them as early as they would like.
The Estimates bring together, in a procedural form, the effects of announcements that have already been made and trailed in the Chamber and in the Committees. I note the concerns and the interests expressed by individual Members and by people speaking on behalf of their Committees. I would not discourage people from pursuing those questions in future on the Floor of the Chamber or through their Committees.
Many of the issues that have been discussed give rise to questions about the adequacy of information and whether priorities are sufficiently robust or policy principles sufficiently transparent to determine how effectively or equitably the Departments are allocating money across the region. Those questions should not just be saved for plenary debates, but neither should they be directed to the Minister of Finance and Personnel exclusively. Members and Committees should pursue the issues through the means available to them.
The Assembly offers Members a great opportunity not just to influence allocations but to hold Departments accountable for them. For that reason, the Assembly was designed to allow the public interest to be reflected in spending plans. It is also meant to ensure public accountability with regard to how well we manage that expenditure and how we deliver the outcomes that we promise as part of those programmes.
Inadequate as our procedures have been to date, they will improve. Resource accounting and budgeting will help, but I know that all the improvements will not come just from the change in the financial management system. I accept that there is a need for change in the procedures: information must be available to Committees, and the feedback from them must be taken into account.
Although Committees have had the information from monitoring rounds and from the Budget, I am not aware of any further requests for information or elaboration on any points that have gone unmet, either by my Department or by any other. I hope that people will reflect positively on that as they go about their business through the other channels available to them as Members of the Assembly.

Mr Oliver Gibson: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. During the debate, a number of us were unable to speak because of the inadequate allocation of time. Some Members were able to contribute rather gloriously and eloquently, but others lost out. In the Minister’s Estimates, there was no indication of thinking for the future on rates, which is a vexed question for every party here. The current system is a hangover from the window tax of many centuries ago.

Sir John Gorman: Is there a question?

Mr Oliver Gibson: It is a question. Would it be possible, in the review of local government, to examine how we raise local taxes?

Sir John Gorman: You started with a point of order, but you are now asking a question. Ministers do not have to answer questions.

Mr Oliver Gibson: I stand admonished.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved (with cross-community support):
That the Assembly approves that a further sum not exceeding £195,599,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund to complete or defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31 March 2001 for expenditure by Northern Ireland Departments, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern Ireland Audit Office, the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Office for the Regulation of Electricity and Gas.
Resolved (with cross-community support):
That the Assembly approves that a sum not exceeding £3,806,414,000 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for Northern Ireland Departments, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern Ireland Audit Office, the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Office for the Regulation of Electricity and Gas for the year ending 31 March 2002 and that resources not exceeding £4,305,870,000 be authorised, on account, for use by Northern Ireland Departments, the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Northern Ireland Audit Office, the Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Complaints and the Office for the Regulation of Electricity and Gas for the year ending 31 March 2002. — [Mr Durkan]

Assembly Committee On Procedures

Resolved:
That Mr Ivan Davis should serve on the Committee on Procedures. — [Mr J Wilson]
Motion made:
That the Assembly do now adjourn. — [Mr Deputy Speaker]

Water and Sewerage Services (West Tyrone)

Mr Barry McElduff: Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ar dtús ba mhaith liom a rá gur maith a thuigim gur mór an gnóthas é soláthar uisce agus séarachais, agus go bhfuil ardcháilíocht seirbhísí éifeachtacha ag an chuid is mó de na daoine.
Mar sin féin, is fíorthábhachtach aird a tharraingt ar an tearcmhaoiniú dona atá ann le roinnt deicheanna de bhlianta anuas agus ar an phráinn atá leis an bhonneagar a athnuachan.
I acknowledge that the provision of water and sewerage services is a major undertaking. Most people enjoy a high-quality and efficient service. However, it is important to draw attention to the serious underfunding over several decades and the urgent need to renew the infrastructure and improve drinking water quality and effluent treatment to comply with EU Directives.
I appreciate that funding pressures have increased with the growth in demand and that even more rigorous environmental standards are expected nowadays. The level of investment required for water and sewerage services will be substantial if we are to maintain and improve existing amenities. If we are to ensure proper provision of such essential public health services, then the debate at the macro level must focus on structural, funding and regulatory arrangements for delivering water and sewerage services. We must make sure that services meet the challenge.
The real problem in west Tyrone is a human rights issue. First, I acknowledge a decision recently made by the Minister for Regional Development to move the major waste-water treatment works in Omagh from Hunter’s Crescent on the Derry Road to an out-of-town site. That campaign was long but successful, although there are still concerns about the new location. The Minister is listening sympathetically to Omagh District Council on the matter. Omagh is, after all, identified as a key service and growth centre in the ‘Shaping Our Future’ documents.
For years, Omagh District Council and I have taken an interest in the campaign to ensure that all rural homes are connected to a public water supply. I issued a millennium challenge to previous Ministers of the Environment — British direct-rule Ministers included — on that matter. In west Tyrone, there is an unduly large number of homes that are not connected either to public water mains or to the sewerage system. We all accept that the availability of good quality water and sewerage services is an essential requirement in any society and is fundamental to the maintenance of public health.
In this day and age, it is inconceivable for city dwellers to consider that even 2% of homes in the North are not connected to public water mains and that 17% are not connected to the public sewerage system. Those are merely figures and statistics that do not reflect the personal hardship. In fact, they mask the real daily hardship for families that lack the amenities that the rest of us take for granted. Hot water from a tap, fresh water for family use — that is hardly a luxury.
I will give some examples of how people are affected socially and healthwise. There is a female pensioner in Greencastle, County Tyrone, living on a small farm. She has to walk to a well every day, which is simply a spout coming out of a wall built to protect access for the lady. I showed a photograph of that to Reg Empey recently, and he was alarmed that such a situation could exist in this day and age. A mother of young children at Backglen Road, near Mountfield in County Tyrone, regularly travels to Omagh to collect four-gallon drums of water for bathing and other everyday uses in her home. The irony of that situation is that the family lives three quarters of a mile from a reservoir, the main source of tap water for the Omagh area. Fortunately, the issue is being addressed.
Families in rural Donemana are apprehensive about offering a cup of tea to a visitor because of the stigma attached to not having clean, hygienic water in their homes. People have difficulties with central heating, and others have no washing machines. There are various families affected in Whitebridge Road in the Sixmilecross area of County Tyrone. Examples include farm dwellings and the absence of a fire hydrant at a forestry division outpost. People who have plans for expanding small engineering businesses in the locality face tremendous difficulty.
One elderly man had a water test report carried out on his well. An undue presence or level of E.coli was detected in the water after the gentleman had spent eight days in intensive care in Craigavon Area Hospital. That raises questions about the environmental standards of many of the water wells currently in use. Dr Wilson, a clinical scientist who carried out tests on the water sample taken, revealed it to be unchlorinated water. There was an unsatisfactory resolution due to the presence of E.coli. The real hardship in that case speaks for itself.
The application procedure is the question. When people do not have running water in their homes they apply to the Water Service to be connected to a public water main, and the financial viability is considered. The Water Service previously allowed a maximum of £2,900 for water mains connection. Fortunately, that was increased to £5,000 recently for an individual unit or home. A home in a rural area was previously allowed £2,300 and no more towards sewerage connections. That figure was recently raised to £4,000. That was announced in May 2000. It was welcome because that kind of figure makes a difference for some families.
However, more work obviously needs to be done where the allowable cost limit has not made a difference for individual families. Again, referring to one of the examples I used earlier — and I am not blaming anyone — it is unrealistic, where a proposed scheme is estimated to cost £20,900, for the Department, under the new scenario, to allow £5,000.

Mr Derek Hussey: The Member is aware of, and welcomes, the recent increase in the cost-benefit analysis figure for water and sewerage connections. Does he agree — I suspect that this is where he is heading — that in circumstances such as those cited, we need some additional criteria to be introduced, particularly in areas of west Tyrone, given the sparse population and the distance from supplies?

Mr Barry McElduff: Absolutely. I welcome Mr Hussey’s comments. He understands the issue because he represents the same area as myself. As well as additional criteria, sources of funding in addition to the Department must be found.
A typical letter coming back from the Department’s Water Service reads something like
"I refer to your request for the provision of a public water main at a certain road. Unfortunately, this scheme has proved to be uneconomical. The estimated cost of the necessary work is £13,000. In this case, it is uneconomical by £10,100."
People on low incomes are expected to make up the deficit simply to access something that everybody else takes for granted. Such problems are everywhere in the North and, I contend, in west Tyrone in particular. I can list Omagh, Drumquin, Gortin, Cranagh, Dromore, Creggan, Mountfield, Sixmilecross, Dunnamanagh, Castlederg, Newtownstewart, Douglas Bridge and Killen. This is not an isolated problem; it is significant.
We have had many debates in the Chamber about rates and the regional rate accounting for services from which people benefit. Assembly Members representing rural areas have been very vociferous — across all parties — about the deficit in services such as the roads infrastructure and proper access to hospitals in rural areas. That is another area where people wonder why they pay rates and what they get in return.
I am asking for greater will on the Department’s part. I would like to see an interdepartmental focus on this question. Surely the Executive, through the Programme for Government, need to address this in an urgent way. What are the Executive programme funds for? They should be for areas like this. I want to see Minister Gregory Campbell going forward with a bid to ensure that all homes are connected to water supplies.
The 2001 census will provide analysis of housing stock and population figures. Therefore, if the millennium challenge has come and gone — and there has been some response in relation to the increased allowable cost limit — let us go for a challenge from 2001 to 2011 of eradicating any deficit of this nature.
The Assembly has to make a difference in such areas — along with the Water Service, district councils, community groups, the European Union and rural development agencies. Let us have a task force aimed at bringing to the starting blocks those homes and families in rural areas that do not have public water main connections.
The necessary resources need to be made available to achieve the standards set by EU Directives. There is a real perception that such a situation predominates in areas west of the River Bann. People often say to me that they pay tax and rates like people living elsewhere.
In departmental or Government terms, the sums of money required to redress the huge imbalance are not massive. Doing so will dramatically enhance the quality of life for many rural families — if the will exists to put it right.
I have a copy of the Department of the Environment’s Water Service capital works programme for Omagh and Strabane districts, which was issued in November 2000. There are various categories and states of readiness pertaining to hamlets and rural settlement patterns: category one — sewage treatment works required to facilitate rural development; category one — schemes that are already under construction or are scheduled to start; category two — other schemes scheduled to begin in the next two years; and category three, which is probably the greatest area of concern — schemes that are under consideration but may prove to be economically unfeasible.
This concerns townlands and areas such as Clanabogan, Newtownsaville, Tattyreagh and Roscavey. Those are examples from the Omagh district in particular, where property developers have plans to facilitate housing in rural hamlets, but are being held to ransom by the absence of adequate sewage treatment provision. The Rural Housing Association Ltd also has plans to build in some rural areas, but that scheme too is being held back by inadequate sewage treatment works.
Those are two areas that I deliberately focused on: the absence of public water main connection for homes and families in rural areas, and the need for joined-up government for rural development and the provision of adequate sewage treatment works for hamlets. The west Tyrone area plan, which is being developed, must take account of the growing need of hamlets in west Tyrone. There must be joined-up government.
Any new arrangement or structure for delivering water and sewerage services must be capable of securing facilities of the highest quality at the lowest possible cost to the consumer and of maintaining and improving safeguards for the environment and public health.
In local terms, pertaining specifically to west Tyrone — but also to other areas where the problem is evident we must ensure that 100% of existing homes are connected to a public water main supply. Rural development needs must be matched by adequate sewerage schemes to serve homes, schools, businesses and other properties in settlements such as hamlets. Indeed, the concept of hamlets is growing.
It is crucial that the development of hamlets be enabled and facilitated in line with commitments to rural communities made in the Programme for Government and guidelines set out elsewhere. Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle.

Mr Joe Byrne: I support the case made by Mr McElduff, and I thank him for raising the matter. I made a similar case in February 1999, also detailing the problems of electricity supply in rural areas.
Many properties in west Tyrone have never been connected to a public water supply. It is difficult for many people to comprehend that at the start of the twenty-first century there are still people in rural communities who do not enjoy that basic public amenity. Purely in terms of new TSN and equality, those unfortunate people must not be expected to live much longer without the Department for Regional Development connecting them to a public water supply.
No matter what the technical, logistical or even economic difficulties, those people deserve the provision of a public service such as water. It is essential for public health and for public service reasons. Parents and children who live in isolated communities, especially in the Sperrin Mountains, upper land parts of Omagh and Strabane districts, do not enjoy such basic amenities.
There are also many households throughout west Tyrone that do not enjoy connection or access to a public sewerage system. The lack of public sewerage facilities is hampering development in many parts of the Omagh and Strabane district — Clanabogan, Drumnakilly, Gortnagarn, Tattyreagh, Aghyaran, Newtownsaville and Roscavey. Indeed, other rural settlements are also being hampered.
Many rural communities that have been growing over the past 10 years are now being prevented from further developing due to environmental pollution resulting from a growing density of septic tanks. Many small rural schools will only survive if we can have housing development provided near them. That will only happen if there are, in particular, public sewerage connections.
(Madam Deputy Speaker [Ms Morrice] in the Chair)
As Mr McElduff said, the EU water quality and waste water treatment standards require that those public services be provided. I pay tribute to the Department for Regional Development, for over the past 18 months there have been about 82 new connections to the public water supply in the Omagh and Strabane districts. I pay tribute to the officials who have endeavoured to provide a supply, given the economic parameters and constraints.
Up until May 2000 the thresholds were £2,900 for water and £2,300 for sewerage. Since then, those have changed to £5,000 for water and £4,000 for sewerage. However, for someone living in a house in an isolated area, there can be a deficit of £5,000 between, for example, the £15,000 which is allowed and the £20,000 that is needed to provide a water supply. There needs to be some sort of discretion applied.
I ask the Department for Regional Development to consider the matter so that isolated houses or groups of houses could be afforded, in particular, a public water supply. I understand that in very isolated areas without a high density of population, the septic tank is sufficient to handle the sewage. However, if we are serious about new TSN and about equality, then, wherever one lives in Northern Ireland, one should be entitled to a public water supply.
I am not going to list the areas without a public water supply, but the topography of west Tyrone is such that it has a large section of the Sperrin Mountains upper lands. There are difficulties in those glens and due consideration needs to be given to that. Beyond west Tyrone there are problems in parts of north Antrim and in south Down. However, we feel particularly aggrieved that in the Omagh and Strabane districts there are many households that still do not have such a basic amenity. I support the motion, and I hope that some discretion can be applied.
Finally, I have been told that the new threshold for financial limits applies only to existing properties and, therefore, takes no account of new houses that may be built on any new stretch of pipeline for water. That is perhaps where discretion could be applied and the basic needs of the people met.

Mr Oliver Gibson: It seems that every Monday afternoon is west Tyrone afternoon. We had a similar discussion last week. I welcome all Members to the area of the most profound, undiluted, unpolluted raw beauty in the whole Province. We had a problem 10 years ago when the area plan was launched.
One means devised by planners to keep rural people in rural areas and to encourage rural development was to create hamlets. That having been accepted as the best way forward, it was discovered that prior to direct rule one Department, never corresponded with another. When such things as sewerage were discussed, I discovered that hamlets were unheard of in what is now the Department for Regional Development.
Fortunately, since the end of direct rule and the appointment of Ministers Peter Robinson and Gregory Campbell there has been a change of heart. People in rural areas appreciate that. Many isolated people who could not get water under the old £2,900 scheme have taken advantage of the new £5,000 scheme — already over 80 people have done so. That has been a godsend to them. Well done to the Ministers involved, because that was the first progress for rural dwellers after 10 years of lobbying.
There are 29 hamlets in the Omagh District Council area and a similar number in that of Strabane District Council. Only the other week Cllr Byrne and I went to Clanabogan. After much lobbying, half of that hamlet is getting a sewerage system. Topography prevents the other half being done at present. The half that is being done now is considered to be more cost effective. No recognition was given by one Department because the Departments did not correspond. Therefore, there is now a great time lag and drawback to development.
Hamlets originate round a church, a school and possibly a local shop or post office, and in the past they have made do with local septic tanks. However, farmers are coming under increasing pressure. The sheughs and burns that serviced their farms are now being threatened because the hamlets are expanding and septic tanks are pouring into the local water supply. Farmers feel threatened, and the developers and builders do not want to proceed because they do not want to upset the balance of nature. So they await instruction from the Department for Regional Development.
I am grateful that the matter is being taken seriously by the Department. A new sewerage works is different in appearance from those of the olden days. It is no longer a crude construction of metal work and concrete blocks that existed in unsightly forms at the end of villages. Now they can be well screened and levelled into the ground so that they are not an architectural obscenity. The matter is being taken on board by the Departments, and I am glad to see that the technological process is beginning to match up.
I congratulate the Minister for Regional Development on coming to Omagh. After all the requests that Omagh people have made, he is the one Minister who has accepted. He has been there three or four times already. Every time he has come to Omagh he has brought money. Anyone coming to Omagh is welcome if they do that. West Tyrone has never had as much development as it has had recently. There has been the Leckpatrick scheme, phase two of the Strabane bypass, the Newtownstewart bypass, stage three of the Omagh bypass and the Garvaghy Road scheme. That amounts to £16·5 million.
That is in contrast to 30years of bombed buildings having to be replaced and of compensation having to be paid out. We could have had good roads, sewerage facilities and water supplies, but we had to do without, because the money had to go elsewhere. I am delighted to see someone aping the "Give them all water" challenge that was issued in millennium week in the Omagh council chamber. I am delighted and flattered to see that. The fact that funding for sewerage schemes has been increased from £2,300 to over £4,000 has been most welcome.
Tenyears ago, the Department of the Environment made the decision to help the rural community diversify, but now, as part of the Government’s policy of rural proofing, of making equality work, of ensuring that equality is accessible, there will have to be a further cocktail of funding to help the Department supply those areas that are presently beyond the scheme.
I received a letter last Thursday from the residents of BackglenRoad, which is three miles from Omagh. The irony was that their land was in the catchment area of the local reservoir, yet they were at such an altitude that they needed a pump to receive a water supply. They were delighted to have fresh water coming into their household for the first time, and two young children were able to enjoy bathing and showering in their own home instead of going to the local facilities in Omagh town. Of the benefits that come from investment, family contentment is one of the greatest.
In the name of the people who have yet to be provided with sewerage facilities, I ask those involved in planning to collaborate. The new jargon is "joined-up government", but I call it "corresponding with each other in ordinary, friendly terms". We must get to the stage where we do not have a situation where the Planning Service decides one thing, and you come along 10 years later trying to play catch-up. If collaboration had been taking place then, we would not be in this dilemma now. A cocktail of funding should be put together so that development in the rural community, which is still necessary, can continue, hamlets can be created and schools kept open.
If sewerage facilities are not available, development cannot happen. If we can get a package together in respect of sewage disposal for the hamlets, we will be able to solve some problems immediately, and we will also be able to sustain rural development. We will be able to keep schools and churches open and all the local facilities going, but it is a matter of keeping things rural. I am appealing for a cocktail, comprising funding from Europe and partnership boards. We must use the various sources available and put together a variety of packages that will enable rurality to be highly thought of rather than having the connotation of deprivation.
I say to both Ministers involved: Well done. You have been good and kind to west Tyrone, but help us to go further by bringing together joined-up government and, above all, a package that will sort out the sewage disposal systems in almost 40hamlets in the area.

Mr Derek Hussey: I too welcome the chance to contribute. The Member who raised the matter is trying to address the question of establishing a quality of life equal to that enjoyed by others throughout NorthernIreland.
The issue of cross-departmental involvement, correspondence — whatever you want to call it — comes to the fore. I stress the importance of a clean water supply and good sewerage facilities to the health and well-being of people in rural areas. We know that care in the community is one of the issues coming through in the health proposals, and it is a growing area. How can people be sent to their own homes to be cared for in the community when they have not got an appropriate water supply or sewerage facilities? That is a cross-departmental issue.
There is stifling of the regeneration of the rural community that the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is trying to encourage. Many of those who live in the country and small isolated households are at the older end of the age spectrum. It has been rightly pointed out that younger people want and expect better facilities. Older folk are prepared to put up with it because that is where they have always lived. Therefore, those younger people who seek to develop a new home to start a new life and who wish to live in the country are prevented by the fact that we have not got the sewerage facilities and water supply that we want.
Small rural businesses taking part in the rural regeneration that we hear about in the Chamber cannot be got up and running because the appropriate facilities are not there to support them. There seems to be an effort to force our communities to move to the towns. The closure of schools and churches in certain areas has been mentioned. The community facilities that they offer through a church hall, an Orange hall, a GAA club, or whatever, need to be aided and supported by the facilities that we are imploring the Minister to supply. The business of forcing people into towns is a growing issue for the rural community. One of the factors forcing them into town is the lack of the facilities we are addressing today.
Mr Gibson and others have mentioned hamlets in rural areas, and I am sure that some Members will recall that the proposed crossroads developments — the smaller version of the hamlet — were all stifled because of the lack of proper facilities to allow the planners to say "Yes, we will allow that to go ahead."
It has all been said. The areas have been identified. I am surprised that Mr McElduff did not identify the area of Aghyaran as one of the major outlying areas in west Tyrone and the Strabane District Council area. I support the general thrust of the motion. I trust that we will gain support in the Assembly today and that the Minister can give us some hope that, perhaps with a tweaking of the criteria and funds coming in from other Departments, he will be able to give us in the rural community the facilities that I know he wants to provide.

Mr Gregory Campbell: My Department’s Water Service has maintained a high level of capital investment on upgrading water and sewerage facilities in the Omagh District Council and Strabane District Council areas in recent times. However, continued investment remains necessary over a much longer period to achieve the higher level of modern service properly expected by all customers. Subject to funding, my Department has planned a very significant construction programme in the west Tyrone area.
I want to deal specifically with that matter before responding to the comments that were made during the debate.
In the five-year period up to 2000, a total investment of £18million was targeted at five major water supply projects and 10sewerage projects across the area. That included the upgrading of the water treatment works at Castlederg, which is ongoing at a cost of £10million. This year, construction work has started on a £6 million programme, which is largely targeted at improving drinking-water quality. Improvements to the Lough Braden/Lough Macrory water supply system will continue with the £4 million upgrading of the Lough Braden treatment works.
Planned expenditure over the next fiveyears includes £9million for four water supply projects to ensure an adequate supply of high-quality water. This will comprise the upgrading of the Lough Macrory water treatment works and the provision of a new river intake to the Derg water treatment works to cater for increasing demand. Over the same five-year period, £22million is to be spent on waste-water treatment facilities to ensure compliance with modern regulatory and European Directive standards. The work will also serve to protect the environment, including the river systems of the area. The construction of new waste-water treatment works is planned for Omagh and Strabane, subject to the resolution of all the relevant practical details, including planning approval and land acquisition. Between 2005 and 2010, an investment of £14million is to be made on water main improvements across the region. A programme of studies has commenced to quantify detailed requirements.
I will now discuss the reasonable cost allowance referred to by a number of Members. Despite the investment I outlined, I am acutely aware that a small number of properties do not have access to mains water supplies. Generally, they are located in remote or isolated areas, and mains water connections have previously proved to be impossible on cost and technical grounds. In May2000, the reasonable cost allowance used to determine connection to a water mains was almost doubled to £5,000 for existing properties. I should stress that the previous scheme was in place for more than 15years. We estimate that the increase will enable approximately one third of unconnected properties in Northern Ireland — or some 1,800 properties — to have access to mains supplies for the first time.
Since the increase was announced, 12properties in the Omagh District Council area, which were previously considered to be uneconomic, have been connected to the main supplies. MrByrne said that 82 property owners have taken advantage of the scheme in the past twoyears.
A further five water main extension schemes are at the design or construction stage. Those schemes, which involve the laying of some 3,300metres of new water mains, will enable a further 13 existing properties to be connected.
The Water Service has identified 39 properties in the Omagh District Council area that cannot be connected to mains supplies, despite the increase in the reasonable cost allowance. The remote location of those properties also precludes connection on technical grounds, since it is not possible to keep water disinfected as it travels through long mains. However, I strongly believe that all households should be able to enjoy access to quality water supplies, so I have instructed my officials to consider providing financial assistance to householders to improve the quality of their private supplies. The Water Service has undertaken a study of unconnected properties in its western division, which will inform the scope of any such grant scheme.
As regards planning approval for hamlet developments, the Water Service is routinely consulted during the consideration of any planning application on the subject of the feasibility of providing water and sewerage services to new developments. However, planning policy with regard to hamlet developments is a matter for the Department of the Environment.
In conclusion, I must refer to the revised charging guidelines. The announcement that I referred to regarding the increase in the reasonable cost allowance for existing properties in May 2000 also referred to a review of the charging guidelines for the provision of infrastructure to new developments. The review has now been concluded, and my officials will shortly undertake a consultation exercise on the draft proposals arising from the review. They will also take account of equality perspectives as they undertake the task.
I view with all seriousness the fact that some people have not got access to a mains water supply. I will endeavour, insofar as it is practicable and possible, to ensure that the quality of water that is supplied to those homes improves over the coming years. I hope that the review that I have just outlined regarding new developments will be announced in the near future. Obviously, I will undertake to study closely any proposals that I get in relation to the consultation exercise that follows that announcement.
Adjourned at 5.32 pm.